Iver Johnson 5.7 mm Carbines

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hdwhit

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Recently, I came across a site dealing with commercial versions of the M1 Carbine. My attention was caught by this page dealing with carbines made by Iver Johnson: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_ij.html

I own an Iver Johnson Carbine (more specifically, a Plainfield Carbine made after Iver Johnson acquired them, but before the facility was moved to Arkansas) chambered for the 5.7 mm Johnson (.22 Spitfire) cartridge. According to the website, fewer than 700 - perhaps fewer than 500 - were made, far fewer than I would have assumed.

What I am asking is whether there are any other currently active members of THR that also own one of these rifles in the 5.7 mm chambering?

Thanks.
 
I have never owned a spitfire, but I did own a Universal M1 Ferret chambered in .256 Winchester Magnum. Despite having a flimsy plastic magazine, the thing actually functioned fine.

Tony
 
m1carbinesinc covers everything there is to cover about Carbines, not just commercial stuff. The guy who owns(Jim) it is a really good guy too. Be sure and email him(bottom of the 'About this web site' page.) with the details of your Carbine. Main site is here now.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/
Anyway, before IJ bought 'em Plainfield(had a Plainfield Machine Co. Carbine for eons) made the best of the commercial carbines. As I recall, there was very little demand for the 5.7. Probably due to the lack of ammo or brass. Still no ammo, but Graf's lists brass. $33.99 per 100. Midway lists RCBS and Redding dies, but cheap they ain't. $150 for RCBS dies. On back order though. Due on the 26th.
There's load data on Reloader's Nest. 40 grain bullet at roughly 3,000 fps.
 
m1carbinesinc covers everything there is to cover about Carbines,
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Thank you, Sunray, I have previously replied to Jim's Iver Johnson survey and have been in correspondence with Jim about this "sub-species".

When I bought mine in late-1985, it came with a set of reloading dies, but no case forming or case trimming dies. The name "trim die" is something of a misnomer as the trim die also performs the second of three steps in the case forming operation as well as allowing the case to be trimmed to length. I had to order those dies directly from RCBS and they were very nearly as expensive as they are today.

All published load data I tried (Pacific Cartridge, Cartridges of the World, etc.) resulted in brass/primers showing obvious signs of excessive pressures. I have currently settled on a load of 11.0 grains of H2400 under a 40 grain bullet yielding an average (per chronograph) of roughly 2,850 fps, but I am always in the process of adjusting/refining it.

Much of my focus lately has been on dealing with the swelling of the case mouth that occurs during case forming (when you reduce the circumference of the case by 50%, all that brass has to go someplace) by the use of weak acid "chemical milling" as an alternative to neck reaming or outside neck turning. I am also interested in using 35 grain bullets which were not available back when I originally bought the gun.

I'm hoping that if there are other owners (current or former) of 5.7mm Johnson guns, that they will identify themselves and share some of their knowledge with me since I really want to get a working, accurate (within the limits of the accuracy of the rifle) and safe load for this rifle developed before I am too old to appreciate the accomplishment.
 
Wonder how it would work out in .22 TCM?

That would get you similar ballistics, easy to find parent case and a 1911 chambered for the same round.





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Wonder how it would work out in .22 TCM?
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I'm don't know. It's sort of an academic exercise since the .22 TCM is based on the .223 Remington case and so has a larger diameter. It would require a different bolt, barrel and magazine; essentially making it a new gun.

The "genius" behind the 5.7mm Johnson was that, in concept at least, a country that already had 30 Carbines could simply re-barrel their rifles and add two case forming steps to their ammunition production line and have a high velocity rifle capable of shooting from a 30 round magazine (just like the AK-47 or M-16, but cheaper) - or at least that's how I understand it was spun when Col. Johnson tried to sell the concept.

The 5.7mm Johnson cartridge is now an historic "fossil", but a fossil that has intrigued me since I first heard about it as a teenager and one which I'm determined to make work once again - if only for one rifle.
 
Yeah, I get the historical context. Passed on an opportunity to buy an entire set up (brass, bullets, dies, rifle, etc.) a few years ago due to it being a bit more than I wanted at the time.

I like the idea of having that sort of PDW round that is getting popular today in a more traditional looking rifle and pistol set up.

When I get home I will see if I can load some shortened 5.56 brass in .30 carbine magazines to see how that would work. The difference in size is not much, however in the firearm world not much can mean huge problems.


For those interested, gunbroker has an Iver Johnson carbine chambered by the factory in 9mm listed. Those rare birds took a Hi-Power magazine.




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Modified P35 mags and once modified they could not be used in P35s. That was why I did not buy one when they came out. At least that is what I was told when I had one in hand. Gave it right back.

-kBob
 
kBob said:
Modified P35 mags and once modified they could not be used in P35s. That was why I did not buy one when they came out. At least that is what I was told when I had one in hand. Gave it right back.

-kBob
Click to expand...

Yeah, required a cut in the top of the magazine on the left side. Don't know why that would affect it working in a Browning pistol. From what I have seen, just a small cut, but have not put hands on one.





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When I get home I will see if I can load some shortened 5.56 brass in .30 carbine magazines to see how that would work.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I would be interested in hearing how that works out. I never thought of trying anything like that because I didn't want to sacrifice the .223 brass and I figured the modifications to the magazine lips to make it work would be beyond my ability to shape.
 
the 223 brass can not be resized to 5.7 Johnson been there done that. the wall of the 223 brass at the base is to thick to fit the dies that form it.
 
Ruger/1022 said:
the 223 brass can not be resized to 5.7 Johnson been there done that. the wall of the 223 brass at the base is to thick to fit the dies that form it.
Click to expand...

We know that, the .30 carbine is the basis for the 5.7 Spitfire/Johnson. The .22 TCM is based on the 5.56 cartridge.











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The 5.7 was a necked down .30 carbine. There was also an Isrealia company that made them.
It didn't catch on simply because there was too much .30 surplus in storage. The original idea was conceived before the end of WW2.
 
Ok, cut the neck and shoulder off three 5.56mm cases. They fit and stacked pretty good in a M1 carbine magazine.

We know that the bolt and extractor would have to be slightly modified, but this might be a workable concept. (in addition to springs, gas pressure, etc.)

Just a more modern iteration of Melvin Johnsons idea. Can't see any major speed bumps in making one. Don't think the market will be huge, but there are a lot of people who like the style of the .30 carbine, but want a different level of performance from it.

For me the draw is having that designed rifle in the newer higher performance cartridge, availability of factory ammunition and a reliable 1911 that shoots the exact same round.

Sorry for the thread drift, just got me thinking of a better idea...............



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Fitting in the mag isn't the issue. It's fitting the bolt face/extractor. 5.56 brass is too big at the base. .378" vs the Carbine's .360".
Never heard of "chemical milling" myself. However, any time you neck down that much you need to ream die to the case neck being thickened.
This guy says he's working on a 35 grain load. Might be worth contacting him.
http://www.sandygunworks.com/Articles/The57JohnsonSpitfire.aspx
 
Given that LeRue and others have opened up the carbine bolt to accept .45X Magnum cartridges and 9x19mm carbines are out there the TCM should be do able as far as the bolt goes. I once spoke to someone that claimed to have modified a carbine to use cut down and blown out .223 brass to . 357 length and loads for use in a carbine. I did not however see it.

Such a thing mated to a moon clip using Model 28 six inch S&W N-Frame set up for such clips would be spiffy and naturally one would want a shorter barreled N-frame the same way for social occasions.

I think the reason the 5.7 never caught on was folks didn't think even little South Eastern White tail would fall to it..... and a goodly number, despite gun writers and the internet, do fall to the .30 Carbine each season.

Also as hard to believe as it is now ammo WAS cheap for the .30 cal for plinking. I shot a far amount of the corrosive French Berdan when the USGI started going up in the late 1960's. Twas always neat after being told by the local egg spurts how weak the carbine was to shoot through both sides of an old LP gas tank at 50 yards while their .357 pistols only made it through one side at half the distance. I know and you know it was bullet construction but it was still fun to watch their faces. And no I didnot try to repeat the shot with the soft points.

-kBob
 
I wanted one for years but the barrel is too expensive (over $200 at Numnuts).
 
Well I might as well be the one to suggest .300 Blk
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Thank you, Gordon, but I'm looking to load the gun I have safely, reliably and accurately. I am not interested in replacing it.
 
Sorry for the thread drift, just got me thinking of a better idea...............
Click to expand...

Perfectly all right by me. I appreciate you seeing if .22 TCM even could fit in a carbine magazine and stack properly. I honestly didn't expect you to turn it around in under 24 hours.
 
22TCM with a VLD 5.7x28 type VMAX (or perhaps a slightly longer case length version if it still fits) would be a downright menacing PDW round in the Carbine. Both Spitfire and TCM suffer as they are from poor BC bullets that don't reach as far as a stocked weapon is clearly capable, even with iron sights.

40gr Vmax at like +2500fps would be pretty gnarly, and you'd have a round that plainly surpasses either 5.7x28 or 4.6x30 by every measure.

TCB
 
My suggestion of .300 BLK was a joke , for this long time carbine user a .300 BLK in a short in vogue barrel is only a .30 carb in an 18" barrel. The 5.7 Johnson round is a pretty good one. I played with it 35 years ago but it was a lot of work when there were CAR-15s around. I had trouble getting it to work reliably in the Enforcer type Plainfield pistol I had for a while then.
 
I had trouble getting it to work reliably in the Enforcer type Plainfield pistol I had for a while then.
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I don't have to deal with the shorter barrel of the Enforcer and I'm still having trouble with my 5.7mm Johnson rounds, so you were way ahead of me.

Do you happen to remember what your loading was?

Also, were you using .224 bullets or .223?
 
barnbwt said:
22TCM with a VLD 5.7x28 type VMAX (or perhaps a slightly longer case length version if it still fits) would be a downright menacing PDW round in the Carbine. Both Spitfire and TCM suffer as they are from poor BC bullets that don't reach as far as a stocked weapon is clearly capable, even with iron sights.

40gr Vmax at like +2500fps would be pretty gnarly, and you'd have a round that plainly surpasses either 5.7x28 or 4.6x30 by every measure.

TCB
Click to expand...

I think you are exactly right.

The TCM OAL is 1.265
The .30 Carbine OAL is 1.65

So I think you have an 'extra' 0.385 to play with.

That 40gr Vmax might awesome in the rifle, but might not fit into the pistol.


hdwhit has been kind to me hijacking this thread already, but thinking it needs one of it's own that deals with just this topic.

So hopefully you all will continue the discussion over here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=810329





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