Jeff Cooper on Glocks

[P. Plainsman]

In his February '06 Commentaries:

The continued sales triumph of the Glock pistols demonstrates the virtues of skillful marketing. The Glock pistol is okay. It is generally reliable, it is comparatively inexpensive, and it is available in respectable calibers. Above all, its after-market service is superior. The great part of its sales comes from police departments where maintenance and quick service are of primary importance. It may not be the best choice for the private pistolero, but such people are not in the majority. For those who feel that only the police establishment should be interested in sidearms - which includes all of the socialist states of Europe - this is a major advantage.

http://harris.dvc.org.uk/jeff/

Love reading the old coot, whom I inevitably take with a few grains of NaCl.

I must admit the Glock has always given me the same unpleasant "statist" vibe it seems to give Col. Cooper. It is visibly intended as a tool for the servants of a bureaucracy. What a difference from the S&W double action revolver, the Peacemaker, the 1911. The Glock is what you would expect a handgun to look like that was designed by a competent, meticulous people who never had a "frontier period," who almost entirely lack a tradition of individual pride in the ownership of sidearms.

 

[R.W.Dale]

 

[lee n. field]

a competent, meticulous people who never had a "frontier period,"

Their frontier period would have been back when the Roman Empire was a major world player.

 

[dmallind]

Oh lordy I've read some rather wacky criticisms of Glocks before now but "statist vibe" is right up there.

You can just see JMB thinking "to hell with functional characteristics, ease of maintenance, durability and reliability - I'm after capturing the American spirit of rugged individualism and the je ne sais quoi of frontier life on this job!"

 

[Standing Wolf]

krochus:

Outstanding!

 

[UWstudent]

nothing wrong with glocks. they're great. accurate. and i've literally put my g21 through hell and back and it shoots like it's a NIB.

can't say the same about my kimber(s)..

 

[P. Plainsman]

You can just see JMB thinking "to hell with functional characteristics, ease of maintenance, durability and reliability - I'm after capturing the American spirit of rugged individualism and the je ne sais quoi of frontier life on this job!"

He didn't have to, of course. That's never how culture works. It's in the background.

Consider: Could the 1911 have been made with basically identical internals -- just as "functional, easy to maintain, durable and reliable" -- while also being butt-ugly to look at? Sure, easily. However, it wasn't. That's the point.

I'm sure some Soviet-era apartment buildings kept the rain out very well.

 

[Chris Rhines]

There was once a time when I would have said that Glocks are great pistols for people who wern't interested in shooting.

Yep, I said a lot of stupid things in my younger days. Then I started to get serious about shooting. I soon realized that a pistol that can run through thousands of rounds with minimal maintenence, acceptable accuracy, and a simple manual-of-arms, might be a good thing for someone who wants to concentrate on shooting.

Viva Glock!

- Chris

 

[John C]

Plainsman;

I get your drift, though I don't agree with it. I think you're reading too much into the aesthetics of the Glock vs. 1911. Your whole argument is very aestheticistic. I think the exact opposite approach needs to be taken in firearms, especially combat pistols, ie function over form.

I think you're right that Glocks were probably designed by non-gun enthusiast engineers. That's why the design is so revolutionary, they weren't constrained by tradition or "how a pistol should look". They focused on keeping costs down and minimizing parts. By throwing out the book, or rather, not knowing what was in the book, they were free to focus on the fundamentals.

John M. Browning was an engineer above all else. All of his designs are so beautiful because they are simple and elegant. I think if he were alive today he'd have designed something similar to a Glock. Remember that the purpose of the 1911 was the same as the Glock. JMB produced an easily mass produced, interchangeable parts, cavalry sidearm. The design was so brilliant, it withstood the ages. It's only now that the 1911 has evolved into "nickle plated sissy-guns" that are only vaguely similar to the pistols that the cavalry carried into Mexico in 1916.

The Glock isn't bureaucratic in the way you mention. That's American bureaucracy. German bureaucracy is a whole 'nother animal. And yes, the Glock is a product designed to sell to that bureaucracy, and that's why it's a sleek, cheap, low maintenance battle pistol. The Polizei aren't the Mayberry PD, and the Glock was designed to shoot it out, toe to toe, with the Red Army Faction or the PLO, not be the local Sheriff's Barbecue gun for fundraising at the Kiwanis Club.

Your comment about Soviet apartment buildings doesn't apply here. No one would argue that the Russians produced inferior weapons by any stretch. Nor the Germans/Austrians. Looking at the Makarov and the Glock, I see the difference between a Soviet tractor and VW Golf 1.8Turbo. Both are people movers, and the Soviet tractor is a lot better in the mud, but the VW Golf Turbo is relatively cheap and almost as maintenance free as the tractor, it just goes ALOT faster.

Interesting conversation. Also, if you're the Plainsman who once ran the Plainsman's Forums, I really enjoyed them back a few years ago. A pity things went sideways.

-John

 

[P. Plainsman]

Not the same Plainsman.

Thoughtful response, John C.

 

[RON in PA]

Remember that the Glock was designed by a committee of engineers to fulfill the requirements of the 1970s-1980s Austrian army while the 1911 was designed by JMB to fulfill the requirements of the early 1900s US cavalry. So both are designs to fulfill the requirements their contempory army's weapons committee using contempory technology.

 

[Darth Ruger]

At first I wasn't sure if this thread was about Glocks or Jeff Cooper. But, since everyone else is debating the Glock aspect of Cooper's quote, I'll add my two cents regarding the Cooper aspect of his quote.

I have to admit I'm not a real big fan of Cooper's writing. I realize the man has truckloads more knowledge and experience than myself, but in my book, the writer's attitude counts for a lot as well. From reading his writings, he strikes me as the type that thinks that if some particular gun or method or approach works great for him, or if he likes an idea, then he seems to conclude that it's the best solution for everyone whether they realize it or not, and that attitude shows in his writing, even if he doesn't actually come right out and say it. Some may feel I'm taking that a bit too far, but that's the perception I get from him nearly every time I read something he's written about guns. And the way I see it, that sort of attitude means that person's writing is loaded with bias, which makes me not interested in reading his words unless there's nothing else left to read.

Yeah, I know, his vast experience makes all the difference. I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. I just don't care to keep reading someone's words of wisdom when they're continually poured through such a heavily slanted filter. No offense to all the Cooper fans out there, that's just my own opinion.

 

[355sigfan]

The Glock is the worlds next 1911 or Smith model 10. Its simple, accurate and so reiiable its boring. It will be in police holsters for the next 100 years.
Pat

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Hmm. I read "Art of The Rifle" and enjoyed it. I am of course aware of the historical significance of Cooper's involvement in my pet 10mm Auto's development. But lately it would appear I agree less and less with Cooper. I switched from Weaver to Isosoleces and like it. I love my Glock and wouldn't dream of trading it towards any 1911. The more I read Cooper's Corner nowdays, the more I am convinced he just likes to hear himself talk. Too bad cause I really can appreciate his significance and impact on defensive shooting and his service to our great country.

 

[355sigfan]

Cooper has contributed a lot to pistolcraft. He is a great man. But he is just a man. A man who can be wrong who often states opinion as fact. I like the 1911 but I also like the Glock. Cooper feels that the 223 is worthless that has been proven wrong. Cooper likes the idea of a bolt action scout rifle. A concept that is about useless. A light semi auto carbine in 308 (AR10, Fal, M1a Socom ect) with a conventional low power variable scope can do all a scout rifle could hope to do and far more.
Pat

 

[Pepe Domingo]

I am sure that there were many cowboys in the year 1911 who thought that the 1911 was butt ugly and designed as a tool for servants of a bureaucracy (which is a pretty fair description of soldiers, then and today).

Calling a Hi-Power or a 1911 beautiful and a Glock ugly seems silly. Both were designed as tools and I am quite sure very little thought went into how they looked.

Everything JMB designed is not beautiful. His first machine gun (potato digger) looked and operated weird, but it worked. I think that the A-5 looks dumb with the big hump in the back, but it was one good shotgun.

The whole aspect of culture having an effect on gun design has no factual basis. You site the Peacemaker and S&W double action as peculiarly evocative of American culture and our "frontier" heritage. Off the top of my head, I think Adam's and Webley's revolvers were every bit as competitive, maybe even more effective, and as pleasing to the eye as their American counterparts.

The S&W Sigma, M&P, and Ruger P95 (among others) are decidedly "statist" for us frontier people with a history of pride in the ownership of induvidual firearms.

 

[DunedinDragon]

I'm always amazed at how discussions like this begin to take on an almost religious fervor regarding one brand or another. That's really ridiculous when you think about the whole process of design whether it's a gun, a car, a stereo, or a computer. One size does not fit all. Each design gets tweeked to match a certain marketing niche. It doesn't make one brand or style better than another except in the context of the marketing niche for which a given pistol was designed.

The perfect weapon of choice is based on what the buyer decides are the most important criteria for them. No gun can be perfect because there are engineering tradeoffs that have to be made. You as the buyer determine what is MOST important and, based on that criteria, select the weapon most fitting those needs. That doesn't make it "perfect" except for meeting that criteria only.

Like a lot of people, I have multiple pistols and I appreciate each one for it's individual strengths. For example, my Glock will never be as pretty as my 1911, but it wasn't meant to be, and that wasn't the reason I bought it in the first place.

 

[BigG]

There was once a time when I would have said that Glocks are great pistols for people who wern't interested in shooting.

Yep, I said a lot of stupid things in my younger days.

Yep. There's not a dang thing wrong with em. They may not trip your aesthetic trigger, but a Glock is a dang good pistol that doesn't have to apologize to anybody, and this is coming from a guy who only believes Colt makes an actual 1911 pistol.

I won't even take a clone for free... wait a minute... yes I will!

 

[bakert]

Although I've shot both 1911s and Glocks quite a bit I don't own either nor plan to at this time but I love to read threads like this. Keep it going!:

 

[jungle]

Jeff Cooper has a vast well of experience and has been a true innovator in the world of firearms and training. It is hard not to respect his writing or accomplishments. Some get a little huffy about his choice of words, but I feel they are the words of a Master and 1911 advocate offering a grudging and respectful positive comment about the Glock. It may or may not be the first choice, but for the reasons he has given it is certainly a viable choice.
Cooper doesn't give a lot of credence to new things because they are new, but demands they function and perform as well or better than the best. He has often hinted and admitted that the Glock gets the job done without failure and I'm sure he's seen quite a few at his school.

 

[Onmilo]

Getting Jeff Cooper to admit that any firearm type besides the 1911 or his Scout Rifle is "Okay" is a major accomplishment and a testiment to the quality and reliability of Glock products!

 

[outofbattery]

Does anyone really think that JMB would never have designed another pistol had he lived longer,that he would have declared "this is _perfect_,there is no need for me to work on another design,to simplify manufacture,to try new materials and production techniques" ? HELL NO,the man was far too smart to have stopped with the 1911 and the unfinished BHP and I'm certain that had he lived long enough he too would have made alloy framed double action 9mm's and yes,even polymer framed autos.

Consider how long it actually took for the 1911 to be an engrained in American gun culture as it has.For the better part of its first century,it was a cheap,surplus gun and many of the epithets thrown at the Glock could easily be thrown at it.If everyone carried and shot nothing but GI spec 1911's maybe there could be some kind of superiority over another pistol designed first and foremost for conscipt armed forces in my eyes,but everyone wants to compare apples to apple strudel.It's a giant myth that American soldiers were and are all farm raised countryboys who can shoot a crow off the phone wire at 200 yards with their grandpappy's old .22,but it helps to "prove" why the 1911 is superior and why plenty of 1911 guys think they're superior to those that choose SIG's or Glocks et al."WE" know what we're doing with a pistol,if you don't have the same skill to handle 1911 perfection then you should choose something lesser like a Block.


Yes, I do own and shoot 1911's but last I checked,I still have to aim them the same as any other pistol for the bullets to go where I want them and they're no more or less reliable or accurate than I have managed with SIG's,S&W,Beretta,Walther and ,yes, even Glock autos

 

[Rockstar]

I'll go with Carlos Hathcock's opinion on Glocks.

 

[ArmedBear]

Which way is it to Jeff Cooper so I can roll out my prayer rug and pray towards that direction five times per day?

His statement on Glocks is something that most of us could have written, but wouldn't bother. They're functional, reliable, unattractive, only mildly accurate, Euro like an oversized car bumper, and uninteresting to gun connoisseurs. Now THERE'S a news flash.

And people call it blasphemy when I post things like "remember, Jeff Cooper is paid by the word?"

 

[politicalpolls.us]

The advent of the Glocks made me realize owning a gun wasn't that complicated and opened me to the world of firearms.