Jeff Cooper on Glocks

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The Colonel and I disagree on many things, but not on this. Glocks are reliable, but if you ask me, they are best suited for people who need but don't want guns, because many people who fall into that category are very lazy about keeping their firearms clean. I have yet to see a glock jam, but my 1911 jams whenever it gets extremely dirty. Still, I can't say I'd want a glock. They truely lack anything to be proud of.

It is arguable that JMB would have gotten into polymer and made something along the lines of a glock, but I refuse to believe that it would have been so ugly. I can't think of one gun he designed that wasn't inherently good looking.
 
You don't really think those early 1911's were as pretty as those $3000 custom "frameable" 1911's of today, by any chance?
 
...if you ask me, they are best suited for people who need but don't want guns, because most people who fall into that category are very lazy about cleaning.
Your statement demonstrates that you have a biased, stereotyped, uneducated opinion about an entire group of people (in this case, Glock owners). Wherever you got it from, you're taking a sterotyped view about a certain type of individual and assuming that everyone is the same way.

I don't need guns. I want them. I'm a certifiable gun fanatic. Don't believe me? Ask my wife. Owning a Glock means I'm lazy? Sorry to burst your bubble, but cleaning the gun was not a factor when I chose to buy a Glock. I went for reliability, accuracy, how it felt in my hand, and I also liked the safety being incorporated into the trigger. Being easy to clean is just a bonus, but it wouldn't have swayed my decision if it were much harder to clean because the other factors, which are more important to me, scored so high in my pre-purchase testing.

Stereotyping large groups of people like that just serves to show how lazy you are, because instead of taking the time to find out for yourself why so many people are in that group, you're content to justify your own purchases by agreeing with a very biased 'expert' and simply dismiss others who make different choices as somehow less involved or devoted to the shooting sports than yourself. Thanks for gracing us with your royal presence on this thread, now the rest of us lazy bums know where to go for advice when we can't figure out how to get the mud out of our boom sticks. :banghead:
 
...designed by a competent, meticulous people ... who almost entirely lack a tradition of individual pride in the ownership of sidearms.
I think it would be pretty hard to make a case for that based on the history of firearms and the role that this people played in it.
 
I don't own a Glock or a 1911, but reading some of the 1911 zealot opinions of Glocks and their owners is pretty embarassing.

Sometimes folks choose to raise their flag higher by sawing their neighbor's flagpole down shorter instead.

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The Colonel and I disagree on many things, but not on this. Glocks are reliable, but if you ask me, they are best suited for people who need but don't want guns, because many people who fall into that category are very lazy about keeping their firearms clean. I have yet to see a glock jam, but my 1911 jams whenever it gets extremely dirty. Still, I can't say I'd want a glock. They truely lack anything to be proud of.

Why would you say something like this? I find this personally insulting. You know nothing about me, yet you make a statement like this about me? The degree of ignorance you have about me and people like me that would allow you to entertain a statement like this is astounding!
 
Lucky for me, my two primary pistols are the G19 and the 1911.

Cooper is a man who has grown up with, came up with, and mastered one platform: the 1911. Why do people get so emotional when he believes other pistols to be inferior? If I had the amount of trigger time he has had with Platform X, I'd be biased towards Platform X as well.

Regardless, that doesn't take away the fact that the Glock is a fine pistol for carry and competition.
 
Quote:
a competent, meticulous people who never had a "frontier period,"

Quote:
Their frontier period would have been back when the Roman Empire was a major world player.

They just had their's earlier than we did, as noted above. One must not forget that those "Barbarian Germanic Tribes" actually sent a lot of Romans home after taking THREE of Caesars "Eagles" and keeping them for several years. They actually have a operating memorial celebrating their victory over the Roman legions.

Now, the above is based on my memory, which has developed leaks recently.
 
Your statement demonstrates that you have a biased, stereotyped, uneducated opinion about an entire group of people (in this case, Glock owners).

Actually, his statement only shows he has an opinion about Glocks. And also an opinion on people that need a gun but don't necessarily want one. No where in there did he say that all Glock owners were lazy or stupid, or didn't want to properly maintain their pistols.

And for what it's worth, I agree with what he said; Glocks are a good choice for "Non-Gun" people. Doesn't mean they're not a good choice for other people too, however.

How 'bout this: How many of you have heard or read the "experts" recommending a 4" .38 spl/.357mag "K" frame revolver as the best choice for a first-time handgun owner?

Does that mean that the gun is only good for incompetent newbies? Does it meant that only incompetent newbies would choose it?

And would you care to argue that with someone like....oh....Bill Jordan? ;)

Anyway.... some of y'all are just being too thin-skinned, and looking for insults where none are being offered. Ya need to lighten up. And possibly, go out and buy yourself a nickel-plated sissy-pistol or somethin'. :neener:


J.C.
 
Not only the VP70Z but the P9S. I heard someone say something that stuck in my memory. "1911s are what you show your friends, Glocks are what you show your enemies"
 
Personally, I don't really see how a Glock could be made "better" looking, without compromising its quality.

Rounding off the slide edges would lighten the slide, with all that entails. A square cross-section is heavier than a rounded one. Heavy is good. The Glock has lots of weight where it needs it, and less weight where it doesn't.

The heavy slide decreases the felt recoil, and it keeps the slide velocity low and the cycle time long. Long cycle time allows the use of weaker recoil and mag springs, and increases reliability a lot by decreasing magazine sensitivity. It's mainly the cycle time that makes Glocks so reliable.

In almost all handguns, the magazine is the weakest link. If you get any jams, the first suspect is the magazine. Why? Because cycle time in handguns is very short.

Look at a blowback submachine gun, like an M3A1 "grease gun," or a Sten. Those will work with any crappy, rusty magazine you stick in them. When you've got a 2 pound bolt moving almost a half foot with each shot, and a cyclic rate of only 450 shots per minute, the cycle time is extremely long. So the magazine can feed rounds at whatever speed it likes, and the gun will work fine.

But most pistols have very light slides that only travel an inch and a half, very high slide velocities, and a cyclic rate of something like 2000 shots per minute. Very short cycle time means the mag has to feed rounds at a very specific time. End result is, to get a 1911 to function reliably, you need $50 magazines. Or maybe really old ones, from back when guns had hand-fitted parts, though those don't always work that good. On the other hand, a Glock will work with a much wider range of magazines. If a 1911 jams, switch mags. If a Glock jams... Glocks jam??? Similarly, 3" and 4" 1911s tend to be fairly unreliable, while all size Glocks are very reliable. Mostly cycle time.

Really, the slide is the only part making the Glock "ugly." Just round out the slide a bit, maybe come up with a catchier name, and everyone would be all over them. But the square shape is really the biggest advantage to the design. And the polymer frame complements the heavy slide, preventing the entire gun from being too heavy.

On the other hand, the square edges apparently make the gun look and feel thick. Even though a 1911 slide is 0.94" thick and a 9mm/.40/.357 Glock slide is 1.008" thick (about a 1/15" difference), everyone seems to insist Glocks are way thicker somehow.

Also, the light polymer frame has less inertia, so it has less of a tendency to stay in place while the slide recoils. That means you need a slightly stiffer wrist compared to a steel-framed auto, when shooting weak ammo. Easy solution is to use stronger ammo.

Relatively small disadvantages, considering the benefits of the long cycle time and light weight.

Of course, some "expert" with high speed cameras and junk will probably say I'm wrong on the cycle time. I just know, from personal experience, that Glock slides are really heavy compared to most other guns, and it's easier to see them move while firing.
 
JamieC, 1911JMB said these guns are "best suited" for lazy, ignorant gun owners, and that they "truely lack anything to be proud of." He was pretty unambiguous about insulting all of us gun owners. Those statements show such an astounding degree of ignorance that I can't even begin to respond to them. You are being far too generous in giving him the benefit of the doubt.
 
mike40-11 that's the funnest thing I've seen in awhile, thanks for the laugh!
 
I love Jeff Cooper's writing, he has a lot of wisdom to impart, but I tend to disagree with him when it comes to particular weapons.

Anyone who thinks a 45acp is a better man-stopper than a 223 has a serious mental block... :confused:
 
I suppose I was unclear about my reasoning behind my opinions on glocks. I have fired a lot of them, because I have an aweful lot of friends who own them. To me, a glock is like a honda. It will work just fine, but a mustang is far more fun to drive. Similarly, my Sig or 1911 is far more fun to shoot as far as I'm concerned, and my sig is certainly far more accurate than any glock I've ever handled.

I don't mean to insult proud glock owners, because again, I know half a dozen of them, but in my opinion, glocks are dull, and best suited for people who don't care about guns but simply need them. To avoid pissing off you glock owners again, I should point out that that is of course only my opinion, and I understand and can appreciate the fact that you think your glock(s) are as great as any firearm. They are cheap, accurate enough for most purposes, available in all kinds of calibers, including the all too neglected 10mm, and I have never seen one jam. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Lobotomy Boy,
Your response to this quote:

“The Colonel and I disagree on many things, but not on this. Glocks are reliable, but if you ask me, they are best suited for people who need but don't want guns, because many people who fall into that category are very lazy about keeping their firearms clean. I have yet to see a glock jam, but my 1911 jams whenever it gets extremely dirty. Still, I can't say I'd want a glock. They truely lack anything to be proud of.”

With this remark:

“Why would you say something like this? I find this personally insulting. You know nothing about me, yet you make a statement like this about me? The degree of ignorance you have about me and people like me that would allow you to entertain a statement like this is astounding!”

You taking the quote out of context. If you look at the quote you are referring to it is not an insult but it simply says that Glocks are well suited for people that don’t or won’t clean their firearms. It does not say that Glock owners are lazy or that they don’t clean their firearms. It would seem that the ignorance is taking the statement out of context and making it a personal attack. His opinion that they lack anything to be proud of is his opinion, again not an attack on you. If anything, there is an admittance on his part that a 1911a1 has a fault in that it needs more care than a Glock.. Don’t be so quick to make this a personal attack.

I do find that many Glock owners take any criticism on a Glock as a personal attack.
 
I'm not proud of any of my firearms. I wasn't the one who designed or manufactured them.

My only sidearm is a Glock, because to me a handgun's a purely utilitarian machine, a defensive weapon that needs to work right now, every time, and be easy to tote around without worrying about babying it.

The Glock not particularly ugly in my eyes, that's a purely subjective criterion.
 
P. Plainsman said:
False choice. We all agree that functionality is the critical, non-negotiable issue with any combat firearm. A fighting gun is a tool, as you say. But the thing is, not all functionally superb tools -- no, not even all military tools -- are visually dispiriting, characterless appliances like the Glock. Demonstrably not.

So the attempted use of the "tool" / "toy" distinction to brush aside the Glock's avoidable ugliness, really begs the whole question at issue. We are talking, precisely, about the design of tools, and what makes such a design great. I say the genius is the one who combines function and form. A phrase which does not mean dismissing questions of form, as it is commonly mistaken to mean.

Designs say something about who the designers are.

I did not suggest that a gun cannot be an effective tool as well as a work of art. That WOULD indeed be a false choice, had I presented it as such.:rolleyes:

This gun once fed a family, and guns like it defended the Alamo.
MP-WM-7.jpg


And indeed, I find the Glock to be 100% utilitarian and lacking in graceful appearance. I won't call it "ugly" because ugly design implies some EFFORT at making something with a certain appearance, and that the outcome is bad.

I will say, however, that the design of my Milwaukee Magnum DOES possess beauty -- a beauty the Glock lacks.

15339_lg.jpg


But the Glock also lacks "ugly."

And it does say something about who the designers are.

Austria, remember, has always been a world leader in ornamentation. Baroque and Rococco art, architecture and music, and even early 20th century art contrarians like Klimt came from or culminated there. Gaston Glock bucks that tide, perhaps consciously.

At the moment, I don't have a 1911 or a Glock. I like the design of the 1911, though the grip safety is a committee design. But for the combination of art and function, I like a number of other guns...

VAH38075_sm.jpg


CA050B.jpg


CA100.jpg


On the other hand, maybe few people appreciate the beauty of anything until it's an antique. There's much to be said for that hypothesis.
 
I do find that many Glock owners take any criticism on a Glock as a personal attack.
Because those criticising Glocks often make it sound that way. Just reading the posts in any Glock/1911 thread will provide evidence of that.

Look at the typical criticisms often posted: ugly, lacking in style or heritage, 'plastic' (implying cheap), best suited to lazy non-shooters, etc. But you don't hear us saying those sorts of things about 1911's. Our criticism of the 1911 is more along the lines of... too large or heavy, not as reliable, not the desired caliber, too expensive, etc. In other words, we cite practical reasons for our choice, not reasons that are purely a matter of taste or what type of shooters we are. Two totally different attitudes, and you wonder why we take it personally? We only take it personally when the criticism comes across that way. A few of the statements made previously in this thread should make that pretty obvious.
 
Exactly.

A fine old vintage red must be stored correctly, there are proper glasses in which to serve it, and any given one might not be to your liking. But man, what an experience when you get a good one!

A little bottle of Cuervo will get you drunk quicker and cheaper, with less hassle, and you can keep it under the seat of your truck wrapped in an oily rag until you need it. When you pull it out, it will work.:p

As the proud owner of neither type of gun, it's fun to fan the flames.

I will say that I have never seriously considered buying a Glock in this "may-issue" state in a county with an anti-carry sheriff. But when I move somewhere where I carry daily, a Glock will be at the top of my consideration list.
 
You taking the quote out of context. If you look at the quote you are referring to it is not an insult but it simply says that Glocks are well suited for people that don’t or won’t clean their firearms.

1911 JMB has clarified what he meant, but I take issue for you calling me "ignorant" because of the instance you describe above. Note that the original quote wasn't "well suited," but rather "best suited." Think about that for a minute. One would have to be extremely ignorant to not see a difference. "Well suited" means that it would serve this purpose well; "best suited" implies this is their primary purpose. For example, if I said someone who misquoted a statement in such a way as to twist it around to suit their own biasis would be well-suited for a career in politics, that would be an accurate statement. But if I said someone who changes words in a quote to serve their purposes was best-suited for a career in politics, that would imply the person was so fundamentally dishonest that he or she could not function in a career less sleazy than politics. It's a very different thing.
 
:evil: :evil: :evil:

"Glocks are a souless ugly tools of souless statist tools."
"Glock has about as much grace or individuality as a condom."
"Glocks make children cry."
"Glocks don't even make
damn good paper weights"

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Blah, blah, they are guns. Get over it. I'd rather have a loaded glock than a rolled newspaper.
 
Who is this Jeff Pooper guy and what did he do?

Edit to add: Wait! Isn't he friends with that Masayaya aboob guy?
 
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