Jeff Cooper on Glocks

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If, god forbid, my life should depend on my sidearm, well, that is why a Glock 26 rests on my hip at this very moment. I'm not the only one. Security contractors in Iraq like Blackwater issue their people Glock 19s, not Springfield 1911s. I bet those folks think the Glock is dang near the prettiest handgun on earth.
 
Actually, from what I've read (the famous Forbes interview), Gaston Glock developed the G17 by himself and it was accepted by the Austrian army more or less unchanged. On the other hand, didn't JMB revise the 1911 based on recommendations by a committee - the grip safety, for example? I'm not absolutely positive about either of these, and would welcome more information.

Who knows, after 95 years the exact details of the 1911's adoption may be sketchy, and Glock is notoriously secretive and mindful of his reputation, but neither design seems to me to be an example of "design by committee". In fact, they seem to be, of all autoloader designs, among the two most sterling examples of selecting an approach and then sticking to it and all its implications.

Although it looks elegant and classical to us now, I would imagine the 1911 was seen as an ugly, blankly functional, futuristic horror by many shooters at the time. Like the G17...:)
 
I doubt Gaston came up with everything himself.

I belief at the time he already ran a business which employed many engineers (didn't they make shovels, knives and other things).
 
Old jeff does have tons of knowledge, and most liket quite a bit of experiance, but hes stuck in the 1940"s-50's. Im not a big Glock fan, but is everyne on this planet wrong. How many LE agencys use Glocks. Jeff, turn the lights on, its a new millenium.
 
atblis is right. Gaston's not a firearms engineer. I guess the logical response that that is, "so what." He was smart enough to hire the right engineers to get the job done...very well. IF JMB were alive today, he'd probably be a supervisor in Glock's Engineering Dept.
 
glock 20

just got some double tap ammo for my new glock 20. im a glock virgin,im looking forward to trying this new gun and ammo. im largely a 45. guy. i love my colt xse govt and p220. the glock feels like a sledgehammer but i have long fingers for to grip it with. ;)
 
I am not a big fan of Glocks but that is only because they don't fit my hand as well as most other pistols. Whatever Cooper says I tend to automatically try and think the other way about it. He is such a worthless hunk of meat that I don't ever want to be seen to agree with him. That being said, I would still rather have a Glock than a 1911 if the situation was serious.
 
Mike33, I am the same way. My Glock 20 was my first Glock but it won't be my last. I originally bought it for the cartridge. Although I am a big fan of the .45, I was curious to try the 10mm Auto and the Glock seemed like the appropriate platform to me. I am now a big fan of the Glock and the 10mm Auto. One of my next two pistols will probably be a Glock 30 for CCW, cause I still don't feel right without a .45.

Double Tap is good stuff. I think you'll enjoy you 20.
 
They're functional, reliable, unattractive, only mildly accurate, Euro like an oversized car bumper, and uninteresting to gun connoisseurs. Now THERE'S a news flash.
Well, as far as being "only mildly accurate", I think that will vary from one gun to the next and from one shooter to the next. I can't speak for any other Glock owners, but mine is incredibly accurate, and I've done no modifications to it. It even has the factory plastic sights, but it's definitely more than "mildly" accurate.

As for being unattractive, Euro, and uninteresting... I think debating these particular aspects of any combat weapon is kind of pointless. These things are a matter of opinion, nothing more. Some people think Glocks are interesting, others don't. Some think the styling is cool, and others think it looks like an over-sized, genetically mutated candy bar. These things boil down to personal preference, just like a person's taste in cars, music, or anything else. These perceptions will vary from one person to the next and have nothing to do with the more important factors of a combat weapon: ease of use and maintenance, reliability, and accuracy. My Glock exceeds my requirements in all those areas, so it's the gun I'm going to stake my life on, regardless of what it looks like, what it's made of, how nostalgic it's history may or may not be, or what any other gun expert thinks about it.

As I've said before, the Glock was originally designed to be just one caliber, in just one model. It has since been tweaked to utilize no less than seven different calibers (9mm, .380, .357Sig, .40, .45, .45GAP, and 10mm), with varying barrel/slide/spring lengths and magazine spring lengths, depending on the model. Considering how generally reliable they all are, relative to how many of them have been made over the years in all their variations, I think the Glock's overall track record is pretty darn good. It may not be perfect, but I'd like to see any other single design do better.

Lest anyone accuse me of having the same attitude as Cooper, I'm not saying the Glock is the ultimate handgun for everyone. Unlike Cooper, I realize that what works great for one person might be completely wrong for someone else. Lots of people don't feel Glocks point as naturally for them as other guns. That's because everyone's hand is different and one great gun won't necessarily work well for everyone because of this and other factors. The Glock is the ultimate handgun for me, but a 1911 might just as easily be the ultimate handgun for my next door neighbor.

What confuses me is why some people seem to feel the need to try to convince others that their #1 choice should be everyone's #1 choice.
 
Darth-

I agree with you about the Glock's merits, and the fact that a lot of the opinions Cooper expressed don't matter to someone considering purchasing a Glock -- even if they are a gun collector with a safe full of "classic" semiauto pistols. The Glock is a tool, not a toy; an efficient machine, not a work of art.

I just reiterated the points that Cooper did, in fewer words, and I doubt many people would disagree.

My point was not to dis Glocks, but rather to ask what the point of his article was, other than fill space.

And no, the things are not built for accuracy first and foremost. They're built to balance various factors, including accuracy, in a practical package. Their success speaks to the fact that this balance is near perfect.
 
My point was not to dis Glocks...
I know. I didn't mean to sound like I was directing my post at you personally, I just used your comments to elaborate in a general sense about some things I've noticed every time a discussion like this one comes up. I should have clarified that.


...but rather to ask what the point of his article was, other than fill space.
I've been trying to figure that out myself... :D
 
I own both.

I also love both! There is "method in my madness." I carry a Glock 20 on duty. It is my daily carry piece. It will perform when others jam, malfunction and generally "foul up." In short, it works.

I also love my Dan Wesson Razorback serial # 0084. It is more accurate than I, and will likely outlive me. I won't likely be "shooting it loose" or have the pistol become "clapped out" anytime soon.

I'll take either into a gunfight with the utmost confidence. I'll have all the power that I need at my disposal, for any shooting task that I may encounter. Where the .45 ACP 'lacks sufficient trajectory' the 10mm will provide what is needed.

While my Dan Wesson cost nearly $1100.00, (factory direct, along with 3 custom etched magazines) The Glock set me back about $550.00 along with two, +2 floorplates.

I wouldn't trade either of them for anything! :neener:

Get over it!

Scott
 
twenty years ago when i went thu the sigarms armorers course we were told that Gaston Glock was a friend to the sig sauer pistol designer, ( dont remember his name) and that he obtained most his info on how to build his pistol from him. the friend didnt see any reason not to assist him as everyone knew building a polymer frame pistol like glock envisoned was unworkable. needless to say the guy lived to regret his decision to help glock.
 
A couple of points need to be noted. John Browning was not a trained engineer; he was a self-taught gunsmith and tinkerer.

His early designs can best be described as "showing promise." The early patent drawings for what became the Colt pistols and the BHP are not at all comparable to the final products. They are complex, with zillions of small parts and the look of "quick and dirty" design.

If we praise JMB for the M1911, we should throw brickbats for the early Colts, one of the few pistols ever made that could kill the shooter if he forgot to put in one small part. Not a lot of design genius there, to my mind.

Further, we should give credit to the Army boards and Army officers who kept insisting that Browning and Colt could do better, and demanding (even actually designing) improvements when Browning insisted his latest gun was perfect.

Browning and Colt (and Winchester) showed genius in one critical area, though. They patented everything they could think of, thus forcing other designers and manufacturers into some of the weird and wonderful designs that delight collectors today. Guns like the Remington 51, Savage 1907, S&W auto, Davis-Warner, etc., etc., are not like that because the designers had a better idea but because JMB had patented all the good ideas, even if he never used them.

Jim
 
The Glock is a tool, not a toy; an efficient machine, not a work of art.

False choice. We all agree that functionality is the critical, non-negotiable issue with any combat firearm. A fighting gun is a tool, as you say. But the thing is, not all functionally superb tools -- no, not even all military tools -- are visually dispiriting, characterless appliances like the Glock. Demonstrably not.

So the attempted use of the "tool" / "toy" distinction to brush aside the Glock's avoidable ugliness, really begs the whole question at issue. We are talking, precisely, about the design of tools, and what makes such a design great. I say the genius is the one who combines function and form. A phrase which does not mean dismissing questions of form, as it is commonly mistaken to mean.

Designs say something about who the designers are.
 
Glocks are not ugly. They have a buisness like appeal like a dark pin stripe buisness suit.
pat
 
Glock is the JR Ewing of the gun world

Glock is the gun that some people love to hate.

Glock was my entry into the world of handgun ownership, also. It is simple, reliable, and easy to maintain. If you don't like the feel, slip on a Hogue universal grip. I did.

I think that a lot of shooters' hatred toward the Glock was (and is) a knee-jerk reaction to its (then) sudden popularity and rise to fame. Glock's boast of perfection probably didn't help that particular situation, but it's only a marketing slogan.

I don't feel that the Glock is inaccurate. Below is my G17 and a 7 yard target of 25 rounds.

cz 033.jpg
 
Gaston Glock is a god, I love my GLOCK. I think GLOCK'S are pretty, but hey, I would like two women that ranked 5 that one woman that was a 10:neener:
 
:confused: If Glock pioneered the polymer pistol, what was the Heckler&Koch VP70Z made of? That was a cool lookin' gun- too bad about the trigger pull.
 
...visually dispiriting, characterless appliances like the Glock...the Glock's avoidable ugliness...
Once again, this goes back to the topic of opinions. With these statements, you haven't provided any concrete information that sheds any light on the use or performance of the gun in question. All you've done is made it clear that you're in the group that thinks Glocks are ugly. Nothing wrong with that, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But it's just that, an opinion.

I could take the exact opposite approach and characterize a Glock as being a revolutionary design, functioning superbly while being made of materials previously deemed unsuitable for a real combat handgun by those too short-sighted to envision what can be made to work when applied in new ways. The radically futuristic appearance is a welcome relief to those looking for a forward-thinking design who are tired of the endless parade of 1911 clones by too many manufacturers who lack the necessary creative inspiration to come up with a unique design of their own. And it's got one of the toughest protective finishes available, all in a package delivering previously unheard-of reliability in a variety of different configurations and seven different calibers. The Glock clearly is the handgun of the future and leaves all those other ancient, outdated designs in it's high-speed dust.

But if I said that, it would be my opinion, nothing more. The next guy might feel completely different about the same gun. Neither opinion would be correct, because opinions are simply personally-held beliefs, not facts. As a wise old man once said to me, "An opinion is nothing more than how a person chooses to feel." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No one's eye is the sole correct one, except to the person it belongs to.

I say the genius is the one who combines function and form.
Exactly my point. That's what you say. Someone else might say something entirely different. Someone else might say that the genius is the one who disregards such superficial things as appearance and aesthetics in favor of creating something previously unseen before, a tool that does away with unnecessary extras and silly things like 'style' in order to distill the creation until what's left is nothing less than the essence of functional perfection, or as close to it as possible. A tool that the common man can afford, that can handle more abuse and keep functioning under worse conditions than just about anything else available, that can be easily used in the most stressful of circumstances, and that will instill no qualms in the user about it's reliability when it's most needed, which is the purpose of it's creation in the first place. The man (or woman) that can do this is truly a genius.

Designs say something about who the designers are.
Exactly.

Clearly, we have two different ways of agreeing on the same point. Neither viewpoint is the sole correct one, just two different opinions held by two different people. And you'll get a different point of view with every person you ask, which is what I was getting at before: debating aesthetics is pointless, because every person sees things differently. If you want to spend more for looks, style, a long pedigree, nostalgia, etc, more power to ya. Not everyone sees things the same way. What's an ugly gun to one person is a masterpiece to another.

On the other hand, give me something more concrete that can be measured, tested, and proven regardless of personal feelings, like reliability, accuracy, and durability, then we'll have a real debate going. :D
 
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