Jim Crillo ammo theories

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tuj

tuj

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Just finished reading the ammo chapter in Jim Cirillo's book. Seems like he was a big believer in the full wad-cutter bullet, not so much a believer in HP's. The gelatin test pictures he provides certainly seem to back up his theory.

1. What do you all think about this idea? Have there been any gelatin tests done at laboratories that compared the FWC against a JHP?

2. Jim mentioned in his book that he took out a patent for a way to make a sharp-edged full wadcutter bullet feed in semi-auto pistols. Does anyone know if this ammo ever saw the light of day and/or what happened to the patent?
 
Well I can only think of a couple pistols it might work in. You'd almost have to have a tapered case for it to feed.

HK P7 and Makarov both feed from a shallow enough angle it could possibly work.
 
Well Cirillo used revolvers, but they loaded his partners 1911 with a single round of FWC followed by a magazine of SWC with HP. But his modified bullet encased the front of the jagged-edged FWC bullet with what looks like a plastic or other soft material on the front so the profile was identical to 230 FMJ. He said it fed fine in the 1911 using the special ammo.

Cirillo credits that first FWC round of the 1911 in his partners gun with two different one-shot stops that saved his life. And according to his experience, there are not a lot of 1-shot stops in the field.

Also the S&W 52-2 was setup to feed 38 special full wadcutters from a single stack. But that's a target gun.
 
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Tuj,

A gentleman on here bought the patent and the equipment used for the revolver rounds and sells them mail order. But alas, I remember not his name. Perhaps he will see the Cirrilo reference and pop in shortly.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
 
A gentleman on here bought the patent and the equipment used for the revolver rounds and sells them mail order. But alas, I remember not his name. Perhaps he will see the Cirrilo reference and pop in shortly.
Click to expand...


Pete950 is the gentleman
 
While I really respect Jim Cirrillo and his real world experience, he was active back when JHP bullet design was nowhere as advanced as it is today. He was on the stakeout squad what, in the 70's, right? That was the dark ages for ammo. Just the differences in JHP ammo between 1996 when he developed that design and 2012 are still pretty significant.

His design looks interesting, especially for a revolver shooter, and may be worth testing and using. But, in general, I think we are way better served with JHP loads today then he was back in the 70's or in the early 90's.

I do regret I never got a chance to meet him or train with him. He was a "been there/done that" guy and had a rep for also being able to impart that knowledge to others.
 
Cirillo's criticism of the JHP comes from the fact that he shot a guy in the head three times with it and two of the rounds completely glanced off the skull on postmortem. He said he would shoot car doors at various angles and all of the JHP designs would glance off the doors if not shot at 90 degree angles. He found the FWC bullet to dig in even at very shallow angles against a hard surface.

BTW, the comparison in the book is a Black Talon JHP, which was, if I'm not mistaken one of the hottest loads at the time, no? Have JHP's significantly advanced since then?
 
Yes, a bunch.
The Black Talon was a 2nd. generation JHP design, and it was not a good bullet in the first place.

They often plugged and failed to expand.
Or in .45 ACP, didn't always expand, even if they didn't plug.

Todays best bullets are 3rd, 4th, and even 5th gen designs and a lot has been learned since the Black Talon.

rc
 
What do you think of the Federal Premium Personal Defense bullet in 9mm? That's my HD load.
 
My wife, who has been a ER nurse, CV nurse, CV OR nurse, head of CV-ICU, Director of Cardiovascular Nursing, and other nursing jobs, says it's quite common for people to come into the ER with gunshot woulds and many of them have head wounds where the bullets ricocheted off their sculls and, still under the skin, travel around the scull and out the back (or embed under the skin there.)

So I doubt super full wad cutters designs would be all that more effective plus most of your shots will be COM, not head.

She has also said many of the ones shot just walked in. As the caliber went up more and more were carried in. Those shot with shotguns almost always were carried in.

She also says when they were shot with birdshot, the wounds didn't look so bad after cleanup on the outside, BUT once the opened the chest they would find multiple organs bleeding and it was very hard to stop the bleeding.

Also Jim Cirrilo, for all his mighty deeds, was not around for such ammo as DPX or Ranger T series.

I would not mess around with the super full wad cutter HPs and just get the top of the line ammo now made. That and practice, practice, practice. For you see, shot placement is THE most important thing once the fur starts to fly.

Deaf
 
Deaf Smith said:
My wife, who has been a ER nurse, CV nurse, CV OR nurse, head of CV-ICU, Director of Cardiovascular Nursing, and other nursing jobs, says it's quite common for people to come into the ER with gunshot woulds and many of them have head wounds where the bullets ricocheted off their sculls and, still under the skin, travel around the scull and out the back (or embed under the skin there.)
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Some years ago a local guy decided to take his own life, and shot himself in the forehead with a .357 revolver. When he didn't immediately die, I guess he took it as a sign and called the EMS. His worst injuries were powder burns and explosive lacerations of the scalp, the bullet entered the skin above one eye, and exited out the back of his head never entering the skull. A buddy of mine who was there said he was complaining of a head ache.
 
Guy's I am with Jim, I have spoke on this till I'm blue in face.
I am the guy with the press that makes his "Safe Stop" Bullet which I carry in my bug while on duty. I have had people on several forums that have wanted to bur the bullets but have never sent the funds. I even sent a member on an other forum some of the loaded ammo for testing which was never completed.

If some one would like to do the tests of the bullet or loaded round and post their report, I will gladly work with you.

When Jim passed his son did not want to go forward with the project, so I bought the press to make the bullets from Jim's partner Fuzzy Fletcher.
I also have the load data that he used.

I am at work so I don't have any pics to post.

But if you go to the Smith and Wesson Forum and do a search you will see the info, you can also google me the pics should come up
Feel free to PM me.

Pete
 
Didn't he team up with Lee Jurras of Super Vel and they developed the tube shaped bullet with plastic pusher wad?

Cirillo's criticism of the JHP comes from the fact that he shot a guy in the head three times with it and two of the rounds completely glanced off the skull on postmortem.
Click to expand...

IIRC, that happened with the NYPD issued LRN.
 
PMC made the dismal copper tube shaped bullet load. The only thing it was good for IMHO was letting air out of tires which it did very nicely!:D
I shot several large dogs with the PMC tube round and it really major sucked ! Was NOT humane and required a real bullet to finish the job on more than one occasion.:(
 
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