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John Ross not delivering paid for JR500

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by mtshooter69, Jun 18, 2019.

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  1. Odd Job

    Odd Job Moderator Staff Member

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    On June 20 last year you were sent a message on Facebook, directing you to this thread and asking you to resolve it. You didn't respond and you didn't show up here to resolve it. Why is that?

    [​IMG]
     
    FTG-05, joed, CraigC and 10 others like this.
  2. falmike

    falmike Member

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    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    As a wise man once said, “It is time to dismount.....”

    Or, as Elsa said, “Let it go...”

    Peace
     
    Duster340 and BigBlue 94 like this.
  3. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    Agree. That's why the thread was closed a year ago. Mr. Ross wanted to revisit and that's what brings us to the current situation.
     
  4. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Contributing Member

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    It’s a he said/she said thing now. Resolved. Time to stick a fork in it.
     
    Duster340, BigBlue 94 and falmike like this.
  5. DustyGmt

    DustyGmt Member

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    I think I can identify more with Mtshooter69 point of view in this case. I appreciate the impartiality and objectivity of some posters but imagine you paid $1500+++ for an item and got this lack of communication. I would be going dizzite... slow shipping is one thing, I would have most definitely 100% believed I'd been raked over in this transaction and I dont think mtshooter69 had any good faith basis to believe he was going to get his gun or a refund......
     
    FTG-05 and edwardware like this.
  6. dh1633pm

    dh1633pm Contributing Member

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    Odd Job your to be commended for giving all parties a say.
     
  7. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    My dad used to say that an excuse was a p#%+ poor way out of a @%#& up. Communication is the key to doing business and getting along with others. It seems that Mr. Ross has his excuses for his lack of communication.
    Mr Ross should have just refunded the money when he saw there were problems with the FFL and he did not trust the buyer. But his lack of communication caused the problem to escalate to where legal action had to be taken.
    In the end Mr Ross made it right, and that’s what counts.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  8. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

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    But did he learn from it. Another guy on here was having similar problems. Guess not
     
    FTG-05, GunnyUSMC and AustinTX like this.
  9. ontarget

    ontarget Member

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    I am self employed. A wise man once told me to "Treat every customer like they are your ONLY customer"

    Words to live by if your reputation means anything to you.
    An unhappy customer can truly bring down a good business with this new fangled internet thing.
    Just look at how much band width is taken up by people complaining about bad QC at Charter Arms or bad CS at Taurus or whatever. These customers are in a VERY small minority (not counting the CA Professional owners) but make the most noise.
    Whatever the rub was for Mr. Ross if he would have treated the OP like his ONLY customer I'm sure this 15 page thread would have never been opened to begin with.
     
  10. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I've seen this come up a handful of times with Ross over the yrs.

    It seems he always has reasons why he couldn't communicate months on end.


    Ultimately, it seems the buyer gets the gun in about 12 to 18 months with half of that chasing him.

    Then a quiet period. ..then another cycle with a cpl more ppl. Same thing.
     
    AustinTX, George P and Gordon like this.
  11. cadet3

    cadet3 Member

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    I've seen the same on multiple forums. Honestly, there's no excuse for lack of communication at this point in time. If you know you can't communicate with customers then stop selling guns.
     
    GunnyUSMC, Frulk, ugaarguy and 2 others like this.
  12. John Ross

    John Ross Member

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    I get literally dozens of messages a day on FB, most of them spam, and I don't read them. ALL of my FB posts are set to "public" and anyone can read them and respond to them. THAT would have been the way to get my attention, but the OP wasn't on FB, didn't know that, and I didn't get the word.

    You said earlier that I should have shipped the gun as soon as I got the FFL.

    You are right, but the problem was that although the buyer told me his dealer had sent a scan of his license by email, I never got it. I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but sometimes people send me emails that I never receive. This often happens when the email contains an attachment. I'll give you a particularly puzzling example: Ben Langlotz, the gun patent attorney, is a good friend. He credits me with getting him interested in shooting sports and his resulting career focus on gun patent law.

    Ben offered to represent me in getting unauthorized PDFs of my book (that people had posted online) taken down. He told me he was emailing me legal documentation for me to sign. I never got it. I called him on the phone, and explained that I would send him a brief email, and he could reply to it and attach the documentation. We figured that would cure the problem.

    It didn't. He got my email, but I never got his reply. We were talking on the phone at the same time that we were emailing each other and trying to resolve this problem. Finally, he figured out what the problem was on his end and was able to send me the attachment. I'm not computer savvy enough to remember exactly what the cause of the problem was, only that we got it resolved.

    Getting back to the case of the unhappy customer who wanted one of my 500s, the first time I ever saw an FFL from him was in the certified letter he sent me two weeks after the license had expired. He has said in the last day or two that his dealer had gotten extension letters, and that he used them to successfully purchase other guns. If he had enclosed a copy of the extension letter with the expired FFL that he sent me, I would have shipped the gun immediately instead of fearing an ATF entrapment scheme. I'm going to try to attach the photo I sent to the police and the Missouri AG after they threatened me with legal action.

    2019-07-22-1968REDACTED text.jpg

    I'm sorry things ended this way, but with no extension letter provided, I had to protect myself.

    JR
     
    __steve__ and ThomasT like this.
  13. John Ross

    John Ross Member

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    Please provide documentation of the assertion you made above.

    12 to 18 months?
    Seriously? Do you honestly believe that any vendor would take a customer's money for a product that the seller had in stock, ready to ship, and then sit on the order for over a year?

    Names, please.


    JR
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  14. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    A few observations.

    In this day and age, electronic communication is the norm. If a business chooses to (or is forced to) operate without effective/reliable electronic communication it's definitely in their best interests and in the best interest of their customers to let it be known up front that anything other than snail mail isn't likely to make it through to them.

    Even if a business is effectively isolated from effective/reliable electronic communication, the idea that it's all right to hold someone's payment for an extended period without apparently ever making any effective attempt to see that they get what they paid for is problematic.

    Based on the tracking information for the certified letter, it was delivered on the 22nd of June. Another month passed (22 July) before a check was written to refund the money.

    It's something of a conundrum that someone who has been an FFL and therefore well understands that FFL licenses expire and are renewed on a regular basis, wouldn't take the logical step of contacting the FFL to ask for current licensing information.

    I'm sure there are explanations--even good ones. I just wonder why so many explanations seem to be necessary...
     
  15. Big Bore TX

    Big Bore TX Member

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    Very educational thread.
     
    1976B.L.Johns., ThomasT, MaxP and 2 others like this.
  16. Electricmo

    Electricmo Member

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    I go to a lot of rural areas myself. 99% of them have cell phone service.
    I think John Ross’s integrity has been damaged. Should it be? Time will tell. I know that I would use caution if I ever want to buy one of his products.
    The story he is writing here seems to have holes all over it. I don’t care at all for dishonesty in transactions. I side with the OP in this one.
     
    AustinTX likes this.
  17. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Communication is key.

    This shows that you know what to do, when you don’t get an expected email, try another form of communication.

    That said, if I am snail mailing a check, wrapping it in a copy of an FFL is pretty easy too. No way to say you didn’t get it when you have to open it to retrieve a check.
     
    Skylerbone and Rexster like this.
  18. stanley_white

    stanley_white Member

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    I submit for consideration that at this point enough has been said by both sides to inform a potential customer and the thread can be locked.

    While the content of this thread isn't taking "The Low Road" yet, if left open, I suspect it will.

    -Stan
     
    FTG-05, falmike and Legionnaire like this.
  19. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    This very thread. The guys been chasing you since may 2019.
    This thread is an example

    Enough time has passed that, imo, there are not enough reasons to explain everything away.
     
    AustinTX and FTG-05 like this.
  20. John Ross

    John Ross Member

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    On the same day that I opened the letter in question (I'm unsure of the exact date), I opened another envelope in my stack of mail, this one from the Missouri AG's office threatening legal action.

    I looked at the expired license with no extension letter, looked at the threat from the AG's office, and called my lawyer. He told me he wanted to see the letters, and told me not to do anything until then.

    When he got the letters in front of him, he said something like "This certainly looks like someone is trying to get you to commit a felony." I asked about contacting the dealer and he nixed that idea, saying something like "I advise having no further contact at all with anyone that may be trying to help put you in prison. Refund the guy's money with interest, document it six ways from Sunday with the Missouri AG's office, and wash your hands of these people."

    I went home and prepared to do as my lawyer suggested. There was another letter in my mail stack, this one from the police Chief in the town in Montana. It was another legal threat.

    At this point I let my anger get the better of me, and I did something petty.

    Both the Missouri AG and the Police Chief in Montana had given me a certain time period to respond. I subtracted a week from the nearer deadline, and made out a refund check using that date, July 22. I composed letters to both, created the photo I posted earlier, and put copies of the photo in the envelopes with the letters. I put the refund check in an envelope addressed to the original customer.

    Then I waited until July 22 to take the letters to the post office and have them sent by certified mail. It was a bush league move, and I admit it.

    JR
     
  21. George P

    George P member

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    Seems more like you are trying to excuse your inexcusable behavior with lame reasons for not getting electronic things or ignoring FB posts etc. Sorry, this is all on YOU
     
  22. John Ross

    John Ross Member

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    I'd like to thank Oddjob and the other moderators for letting me have my say. It appears that I've only managed to bring even more hostility and vitriol down on myself.

    Since I am no longer a dealer, and my previous inventory is either being bought in bulk by local investors that I know personally, or being sold at auction, the issue of "warning others about me" is now moot.

    I'm out.

    JR
     
  23. GunnyUSMC

    GunnyUSMC Member

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    Not so much as hostility, more like disappointment.
    My dad’s lesson in giving excuses has served me well for many years. When I screw something up, I just say that I screwed up. We all have to live with the repercussions of our own actions.
    But like I said before. In the end you made things right.
     
  24. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    I feel it unfortunate that in creating a unique and desirable product that you were also bound to it. That brings much responsibility that perhaps was too much to bear given you hectic schedule and it’s lead to a number of threads from those not willing to meet closer to your end.

    More than once I’ve ordered merchandise from vendors knowing full well that while I wanted it today it would instead take months (Optics Planet anyone?). I feel for both parties in this case despite my belief that both were in the wrong. Just as the OP’s tale was unfolded with explanations aplenty, so too did Mr. Ross’s to a degree that I feel none of us should attempt to armchair the score as both have lost.

    I do wish both of you better fortune in your future dealings.
     
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  25. Odd Job

    Odd Job Moderator Staff Member

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    I think we have discussed this enough.
     
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