Just making sure I'm thinking this through properly...

[Packman]

Finally got a small scale, so I can be a little more accurate with my measurements.

I generally shoot based on a small volume measure. I've always shot Pyrodex RS, which is supposed to be FFg equivalent. In my 1858, I've had the powder measure set to 45 grains lately. When I actually weighed the amount of pyrodex that holds, it weighed out to be 24 grains.

So, if I want to shoot the holy black (Goex FFg is what I have on hand), then to get an equivalent power charge to what I'm shooting now, I'd have to back the powder measure down to 24 grains, correct?

If I'm thinking this through correctly, I may step the volume of pyrodex up to 50 grains, as that will help bring the ball closer to the top with less filler. I'm guessing off the top of my head that that'll be about a 26-27 grain power equivalent, which should still be perfectly safe in the revolver, yes?

Further, I'm guessing if I left the measure set to 50 grains and filled it up with Goex, I'm liable to turn that 1858 into a hand grenade. Also yes?

 

[BHP FAN]

Scales are used for smokeless, and black powder is loaded by volume. If the measure isn't accurate enough for you, may I suggest a Lee dipper set? Your charge is a good one, but if you want to move the ball towards the barrel [something I don't worry about much, but competion shooters do] you could use wads.

 

[Packman]

Right, grains are a measurement of weight, not technically volume, right? So our BP powder measures are set up based of a volumetric equivalent to the weight, as I understand it. In other words, when I set my powder measure to the "20" mark, if I were to weight that charge, it should weigh 20 grains. If I recall rightly, on a volume basis, pyrodex is lighter than true black. So with that measure still set at the "20" mark, if I filled it with pyrodex instead of black, it would weigh less than 20 grains, but still have the equivalent power of 20 grains of black, right?

Or am I confused?

 

[BHP FAN]

yes, of two F. I find Pyrodex to have a little less power by volume than real black and a lot more corrosion. When I shoot, I don't always use Goex, but when I don't, I use Triple Seven. If Pyrodex is all you have, by all means shoot it up....Lee's dipper set has a rather clever ''cardboard computer'' conversion unit, that tells you the volume to dipper equivilant.No, you are not confused, and seem to have a pretty good handle on it.

 

[Packman]

Gotcha, thanks.

When I started shooting BP, I was 20, and my LGS refused to sell me BP, despite it being perfectly legal. I politely told them that wal-mart was willing to do it, and they had more expensive lawyers, so it was probably perfectly legal. They still declined, so I went over to walmart and bought a nice big jug of Pyrodex, which I'm still shooting. I have 2 pounds of Goex sitting on the shelf, but I've been trying to get rid of the Pyrodex before I crack those open. I'm getting down to the bottom of the bottle, I only have maybe 1 flask worth left of it, so that's why I'm getting curious now.

 

[BHP FAN]

I inherited some when my dad died, and it had very little ''poo'' left. I gave the unopened one to the cannon shooters at our club, and used the rest for fertilizer, as I have pretty good access to real BP, and the LGS has plenty more Triple Seven. The Pyrodex rusted my pistola, [a light surface rust over the whole thing] even though I always clean my guns the same day they are fired. All in all I was less than impressed. In fairness I live up here in the Redwoods, which is technically rain forest, but I never got such negative results with real black powder, or more recently, T-7.

 

[Don McDowell]

Finally got a small scale, so I can be a little more accurate with my measurements.

I generally shoot based on a small volume measure. I've always shot Pyrodex RS, which is supposed to be FFg equivalent. In my 1858, I've had the powder measure set to 45 grains lately. When I actually weighed the amount of pyrodex that holds, it weighed out to be 24 grains.

So, if I want to shoot the holy black (Goex FFg is what I have on hand), then to get an equivalent power charge to what I'm shooting now, I'd have to back the powder measure down to 24 grains, correct?

If I'm thinking this through correctly, I may step the volume of pyrodex up to 50 grains, as that will help bring the ball closer to the top with less filler. I'm guessing off the top of my head that that'll be about a 26-27 grain power equivalent, which should still be perfectly safe in the revolver, yes?

Further, I'm guessing if I left the measure set to 50 grains and filled it up with Goex, I'm liable to turn that 1858 into a hand grenade. Also yes?

Actually the blackpowder charge you weigh out of your measure without changing the setting should weigh very close to the 45 grains you have it set at.
A charge of Pyrodex is lighter by weight than the same volume of blackpowder. That's why it (pyrodex) is meant to be used on a volume equivilant.
Blackpowder charges are meant to be weighed in grains, or drams.

 

[Packman]

Actually the blackpowder charge you weigh out of your measure without changing the setting should weigh very close to the 45 grains you have it set at.
A charge of Pyrodex is lighter by weight than the same volume of blackpowder. That's why it (pyrodex) is meant to be used on a volume equivilant.
Blackpowder charges are meant to be weighed in grains, or drams.

Okay, now I think I am confused. I might have it straight though, let me try it...

So... My powder measure is set at 45 grains. I've been filling that up with pyrodex, and the revolver is perfectly happy with that. Despite the fact that the pyro weighs less, that volume has (approximately) the equivalent power of a 45 grain (by weight or volume) charge of black powder. In other words, in terms of power/pressure inside the chamber, a volume measurement of 45 grains is fine, regardless of whether I use Pyrodex or Goex. It just so happens that the Pyrodex isn't as heavy as the Goex.

Is that right?

 

[Don McDowell]

Yes that's correct.
And actually provided the gun shoots the blackpowder charge equally as well, the pressure the load developes will be less with the black than the pyrodex or other subs for that matter.
Hogdons used to provide a chart that showed the actual weight of a pyrodex charge compared to the same volume of blackpowder, don't know if they have it on their web site or not.

 

[BCRider]

Your posts #3 and #8 show that you're on the right track.

Don's post seems to have got you mixed up a little but he just said what you said in #3 but in a slightly different way. He was still referring to your original post which DOES have one misunderstanding in it.

This part here from your first post;

So, if I want to shoot the holy black (Goex FFg is what I have on hand), then to get an equivalent power charge to what I'm shooting now, I'd have to back the powder measure down to 24 grains, correct?

This is the mistaken part. When you switch to black you don't back anything down. 45gns by volume or weight FOR BLACK POWDER will give you the same power from the gun as the 45gns volume/24gns weight of Pyrodex that you are used to shooting.

Now when you get to the nitty gritty there will be some small changes since 2F and 3F don't settle in the measure the same as Pyrodex and the other subs. And then I've also never found a volume measure that 100% matches the weight either. That's why the use of "weight equivalent" volume measures is just a handy convenience.

When things get serious it doesn't matter if it's black powder or Pyrodex or regular smokeless. At that point the best way is to weigh out each charge.

As for your wanting to bump up to 50gns volume on the Pyrodex you can figure out what it'll be. Take the weight over volume ratio you already learned about for THIS BATCH of Pyrodex and multiply it by your target measure. So 24/45 x 50 = 26.7gns by weight.

Mind you since the companies go to great lengths to match the pressure produced based on the volume of the charge I would not trust the density to stay 100% reliable from batch to batch. I'd want to weigh some sort of standard measure for each new bottle to determine if the density stays constant or if your ratio of weight/volume has to alter slightly.

But as I say this is really getting down to the nitty gritty and for casual revolver shooting or basic plinking you don't need to get this snazzy over the details. Really the only reason to even consider the weight thrown by your measure is if you want to calibrate it to thrown a matching weight to volume of proper black powder. Or if you simply want to know just what weight a 50gn volume measure truly is throwing. And perhaps just how consistent it is from throw to throw. And again I don't see the point unless you're loading up long range precision black powder cartridges. And in that case you really should be loading by weight at that point anyway.

 

[Pulp]

Now that you know your measure throws 24 actual grains of Pyro, you can set your powder dispenser to throw 24 grains.

This whole volume/grains has always had me bumfuzzled. I don't care how you measure, if you throw the same volume every time, you also throw the same mass every time. And vice versa. Powder measures are designed to throw the same mass every time. When it is critical (.45-70) I weigh each charge individually, and trickle it up to 65 grains. When it is not critical, (Cowboy Action) I use a flask. My 30 grain spout throws around 28 grains of Goex FFFg. If I use Pyro or any other sub, I don't care what it weighs, as long as the spout is full. "BOOM!" will be reasonably close to the same.

 

[Packman]

So, if I want to shoot the holy black (Goex FFg is what I have on hand), then to get an equivalent power charge to what I'm shooting now, I'd have to back the powder measure down to 24 grains, correct?
This is the mistaken part. When you switch to black you don't back anything down. 45gns by volume or weight FOR BLACK POWDER will give you the same power from the gun as the 45gns volume/24gns weight of Pyrodex that you are used to shooting.

Gotcha, thanks. I realized that based on my latest post the first one must be wrong. I think I have it straight now.

 

[Don McDowell]

If you go here http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html and read their instructions on how to throw charges of pyrodex it may help.

Pyrodex is lighter in weight than blackpowder and weighs only about 70% as much as blackpowder. However, because Pyrodex yields more energy per pound than does blackpowder, the same volume of Pyrodex gives similar performance to blackpowder. Pyrodex loads given in this manual for muzzleloading guns are measured by volume, not weight.

 

[BowerR64]

I would just use the volume way to measure it and then dump it onto your scale and do this say 5 times. Or round it up to the next grain and then use the scale from there.

What i did was measure with my little empty shells that ive been using and i like to use. I measured them with a level scoop using a blade to level them. Then i weighed them with my scale and just rounded up.

I got weigh charges like 19.3, 21.0 19.8 etc. so when i go to pre measure my quick charge tubes i just weigh out 20 grains

2F i havnt gone threw them all yet to

This wont make me a dead shot but i figure doing this, reaming the cylinders, using swiss powder, weighing all the balls, lightening the trigger all adds up.