Just what exactly has the NRA done for me?

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Sarge55,

So instead of ponying up the 35 bucks to ensure your career was going ok, and then submitting an expense report, you blame the NRA?

Sorry, but the lack of follow-through on your part assisted in the de-certification. However, I do see your point about having to go through a 1000 dollar certification being silly and senseless.
 
Sarge55:

They didn't get their $35 (through no fault of mine), so now I'm not worthy of being one of their certified firearms instructors? $1000.00 to attend their school AGAIN? Not likely! It's all about the MONEY. For 35 stinkin' dollars they have no problem screwing up my career.
So... to answer your question TexasSkyhawk, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE NRA HAS DONE FOR ME!
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Don't do the crime if you can't stand the time, Sarge. You risked your own career because you didn't want to pay $35 out of your own pocket, and you lost. See the Chaplain and get a compassion slip. If you don't like the law contact your legislator to get it changed.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move on.
 
So... to answer your question TexasSkyhawk, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE NRA HAS DONE FOR ME!
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I really figured it would be someone complaining about the junk mail that would take the cake, but this one is a winner.

If I don't make my car payment and it get's repo'd I'm blaming Chevy
 
I really figured it would be someone complaining about the junk mail that would take the cake, but this one is a winner.

If I don't make my car payment and it get's repo'd I'm blaming Chevy
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Rats. I thought that Brad Johnson deserved the prize simply because of his speed and succinctness in discounting the NRA.

But you're right. Sarge55 is the clear winner so far for most creative grievance.
 
alright, I'm gonna join in

and thank TexasSkyhawk for his contribution here about the book. I fully support the history he provides. From my perspective, he's got it right--and for all the complaints made by purists and absolutists, there is no doubt in my mind that the NRA has been very successful in pragmatically influencing legislation, particularly on the Federal level. At the States level, it all depends on the effectiveness of the local organization and whether or not you can get the National's attention--but if they come in to support State legislation, they can be a powerful influence.

However, Sarge55's complaint is a valid one: I'm going to keep my story short--but I bumped heads with the BASIC office in the late nineties, when they refused to accept my documentation that I had instructed over 100 kids at a summer camp because, at the Camp Owner's request, I did not submit individual data (home addresses).

The office for BASIC CERTIFICATION was a mind-numbing beauracracy. I won't clutter up this thread with a shaggy dog story, but the bottom line was, the administrators in the Home Office were dominated by retired career non-coms (cheap to hire; they've got a pension going), and they had no real people skills in administering programs programs for the public whose instructors are likely to be driven as much by volunteerism as a desire for cash benefit. Sarge's story doesn't really make clear that apparently his recertification hung on relatively-minor paperwork issue--and that the home office had no way to accomodate this problem. (That problem is reinforced by the same corporate-think CYA-liability fears that exist elsewhere, I'll bet.)

Providing BASIC instruction here in MN outside the "hunting" realm (and at a WI UMC boy's camp driven by "progressive" communal values, but with a sixty-year history of marksmanship programs) was an incredible challenge in the early Nineties--sick Willy, Sarah Jane, and Josh Sugarman had all demonized the regular NRA, remember? For recertification, IIRC you were required to turn in lists (for NRA membership promotion) of at least 30 people a year that had completed classes--and I think they HAD to join the NRA as well. I had five or six certifications; if you didn't / couldn't provide those lists, then recertify. The first time I did that, it cost $100.00. Three years later, it was $300.00--that's PER certification. I let the whole thing go; I had too many other things going on to fiddle with this form of activism.

At any rate, I digress--I'm still an NRA member, a life one, and if I could afford it, I'd start moving up the ladder. Hopefully, they've solved some of the certification continuing education issues. BTW, at that time, a "Marksmanship / Education" division was much more effective at outreach. But that's another story.

Jim H.
 
"Some bean counter at your department didn't pay the bill and somehow that is the NRA's fault?"

Exactly. It is your certification and it is your responsibility to renew it. Do not ever trust anyone else to do it for you.
 
Yeah, the NRA isn't doing anything at all:

http://www.nraila.org/Media/PDFs/kempthorne_ltr.pdf

Not like trying to get 2nd Amendment rights restored in National Parks and Wildlife Refuges.

Here's what I do folks. I support the NRA financially when I can on issues that I agree with. I tend to give in the neighborhood of 100 bucks a year or so to the NRA-ILA. I give my TIME, energy, and part of my gun fund to my local 2nd Amendment group: the VCDL. It's groups like this that pick up much of the local slack that the NRA just doesn't have the manpower or local organization to handle. If it helps, I just joined the GOA as a yearly member. I wonder how many times I get peppered there.
 
TexasSkyhawk, you asked a question, and I gave you an honest opinion. If you really didn't want to know, you shouldn't have asked.
To answer a few more of your questions:

Yes, I am a "cop", and have been for just shy of 30 years. I had also been a card carrying member of the NRA for 20 years, serving as a regional NRA banquet committee person for a few of those years.

Don't know about the Feds, but us local yocals here in PA still have the luxury of discretion in the enforcement of summary infractions, such as in your example of your wife failing to pay your insurance premium. Would I have written you a traffic citation? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your demeanor and how believeable your story was. Chances are good that you would have been issued a written warning.

I agree, the ball was dropped on my end, and ultimately it was my responsibility to confirm that the $35 fee was paid. There was an administrative glitch some time after I had submitted the bill. No one blatantly refused to pay the bill. And you're right, this isn't the NRA's fault.

As a matter of fact, I am (or should I say was), the sole firearms instructor in our 25 officer department, and no, the Chief doesn't break out his checkbook and pay the departments bills. Our municipality has a treasurer that does that.

Don't know what the point of your question is here, but, sure, I could've attended the state police sponsored firearms instructor school in Harrisburg (for free), but I felt the NRA provided better training. Yes, it was an option at the time.

Once again, yes, my municipality dropped the ball, and that's not the NRA's fault. However, it was just an administrative error. A simple matter of paying $35. That's all. It's not as if I failed to attend a certification update or failed a recertification test. I have the same knowledge and ability to instruct today as I had the day before the $35 was due.

It seems to me that the NRA only sees things in black and white. Unfortunately, my situation falls somewhere in the gray area. Can you imagine if most cops only saw things in black and white? There would be alot of unhappy people out there.

In a nutshell, all the rep needed to do when I advised her of my situation, was to make an attempt to see if anything could be done to help me with my situation. If she had actually tried to help, my opinion may be quite different, but she didn't even try. All I got was, sorry about your luck, you need to give us another $1000.
 
Robert Hairless said:
Rats. I thought that Brad Johnson deserved the prize simply because of his speed and succinctness in discounting the NRA.
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wha-wha-WHAT!!?? Where in the heck did that little jab come from?

You should get your head out, Bob. The lack of oxygen has already affected your ability to read.

Brad
 
It seems to me that the NRA only sees things in black and white. Unfortunately, my situation falls somewhere in the gray area. Can you imagine if most cops only saw things in black and white? There would be alot of unhappy people out there.
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Can you imagine the other side?

NRA certifications are used in many many arenas, lots having to do with law enforcement etc.

Can you imagine a scenario where an NRA instructor, the only one for a department, with an expired certificate, even though only because of a paperwork error, teaches a class and a student is involved in a shooting?

Can you imagine an attorney finding this during discovery?

It would be like Free Steak day. Ohhh a cop shot my poor misguided plaintiff and the instructor that taught the cop didn't even have a license.
We'll take cash or check for our settlement please. Oh by the way we'll be naming NRA as a party to the suit anyway, since they have lots of money.

It has nothing to do with your knowledge and ability, it has everything to do with the integrity of the licensing. This kind of thing is certainly not unique to NRAs licensing programs.

It's a real shame what happened to you but you have no one to blame but yourself.
 
Don't ya hate that kind of mind numbing bureaucratic response? You know, the kind you usually find at town hall. Well it's alive and well in just about every organization with a head count of greater than two staffers.

The KEY (as any good salesman could tell you) is to get through to someone with the power to make a decision. The gal who answered the sarge’s call was probably a $7.50/hour temp temp who didn't know what to do when your situation didn't fit neatly into her 'check the box' instructions.

I bet if you had written a letter to the program head or higher up, in a Civil and professional tone, you might have received a different answer....and helped the organization improve through better training of their phone staff.

Find out who has the authority to make a decision and get through to that person. It's a life skill that will go a long, long ways.

Unless of course it's the government, where people deflect criticism by denying any authority/responsibility, starting at the top.

it has everything to do with the integrity of the licensing.
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Nah, it's strictly a bureaucracy thing and a money thing. Heck even the state board of licensure for professional engineers cuts you some slack when you file your renewal (with check eclosed) late. They put you on temporary suspension and then make you pay an extra 25 bucks before they'll re-enstate. Not that stamping bridge designs or sky scraper plans has any potential for liability or anything.
 
Brad Johnson:

wha-wha-WHAT!!?? Where in the heck did that little jab come from?

You should get your head out, Bob. The lack of oxygen has already affected your ability to read.

Brad
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Ingrate. You're insulting the very person who is trying hard to get you an award. Have I misunderstood that you were praising the NRA instead of denouncing it when you so eloquently wrote:

Oh no, not again... :rolleyes:

Brad
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Or is it that you're just tired of reading message threads about the National Rifle Association in forums for gun owners and wish people would talk about other things.

Be very careful. I'm your biggest supporter here.
 
I was at CPAC 2 years in a row and the head of the NRA was one of the most interesting figures to speak. I liked the way he had to make sure he was complying with the DC self-defense ban.
 
Sarge55:

Depends on your demeanor and how believeable your story was. Chances are good that you would have been issued a written warning.

I agree, the ball was dropped on my end, and ultimately it was my responsibility to confirm that the $35 fee was paid. There was an administrative glitch some time after I had submitted the bill. No one blatantly refused to pay the bill. And you're right, this isn't the NRA's fault.

As a matter of fact, I am (or should I say was), the sole firearms instructor in our 25 officer department, and no, the Chief doesn't break out his checkbook and pay the departments bills. Our municipality has a treasurer that does that.

Don't know what the point of your question is here, but, sure, I could've attended the state police sponsored firearms instructor school in Harrisburg (for free), but I felt the NRA provided better training. Yes, it was an option at the time.

Once again, yes, my municipality dropped the ball, and that's not the NRA's fault. However, it was just an administrative error. A simple matter of paying $35. That's all. It's not as if I failed to attend a certification update or failed a recertification test. I have the same knowledge and ability to instruct today as I had the day before the $35 was due.
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Sarge, that's not what you said yesterday. Yesterday it was the NRA's fault, the NRA stuck it to you, the NRA screwed up your career. And the NRA did it only because of the money, those greedy rats, just because of a stinking $35 fee.

So in the matter of demeanor and believability, is it conceivable that your own demeanor was offensive when you finally telephoned the NRA to handle the matter yourself and is it possible that your story was not believable when you blamed the dog for eating your homework?

Are you the only cop in the U.S. who won't arrest people on warrants for failure to pay traffic fines or other breaches involving administrative errors in failing to pay money.

I don't understand why you're not chewing out your municipality's Treasurer for not paying your bill or your Chief for not keeping track of what you say was so important. Have you considered writing your Chief and the Treasurer those extremely harsh things you've said about the NRA. If not, why not. You don't have any reluctance to name the NRA, so let's have the names of your Chief and your municipality's Treasurer. Maybe there are people here who will write them for you and strike an equally bold blow at those people who harmed you too.
 
i happen to really like being a nra member. i was a little lax about my membership, but i had the exscuse of being a kid without a checking account and a anti mother.
however for several years i participated in the NRA/4-H shooting club and went to the shooting camp at Hoilday Lake. some of my best memories as a tween come from those days. for a week every year i, the socially enept little girl, had friends and they all were shooters like me.
the nra has a LOT of programs for kids and adults that are deffinatly worth a membership. and then, on top of that, is the political lobbing which would be worth supporting all on its own.
i also happen to like getting the neat stuff they send out. the coins are kinda pointless, but the videos are cool and i don't mind paying 12 bucks for them.
 
I think the NRA has a done a lot of good, but they are becoming just like any organization or government that has been around awhile a bureaucracy. They have been complacent in some things I am not happy about and take credit for stuff a lot of other organizations do once things get rolling and take the spot light. Do I hate them, no? I have a life membership, but thats all they get from me. Now I support other groups that need the money more and also groups that work locally within my state.
 
The NRA is imperfect. So what? We all are, and so is every organization on earth. I find parts of the NRA bureaucracy difficult to deal with, but parts of it are pretty decent. Its hit or miss.

IMO, the NRA's education programs have helped make a huge dent in the number of accidental shootings over the years. A lot of people are alive who would otherwise be dead if not for those programs. The NRA has led the way in police firearms education, especially for smaller departments. The NRA is now leading the way in teaching personal defense in a cost effective way to law abiding citizens. There are probably things about these programs that could be improved, and as best I can tell there is an ongoing effort to improve them. But no other organization does as much.

The NRA is the sport shooting sanctioning body for a lot of shooting activities. Most of it runs pretty well, especially considering it is mostly handled by volunteers. Maybe sanctioned shooting events don't matter to you, but a lot of people do care.

The political side of the NRA is what drives most people crazy. Some think the NRA is mostly a fund raising group (a fair criticism based on the volume of mail begging for money I get from them). I get a letter begging for money nearly every month from another GO group I belong to, and they haven't done 5% of what the NRA has accomplished. Others don't like the idea of compromise in the political arena, while forgetting that an all or nothing approach usually results in getting nothing.
 
There is a reason the NRA is the organization always cited by the antis. They're effective. If it wasn't for the NRA, this forum might be more about pellet guns, BB guns and slingshots.

If ya want to find an "excuse" not to join. I'm sure you will.

But as pointed out in an earlier post, approx 4 million of us are carrying the water for 80 million gun owners.

Tuckerdog1
 
Can you imagine if most cops only saw things in black and white? There would be alot of unhappy people out there.
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Yeah, I can imagine.
Let's look at traffic cops.
They'd pull everyone over for every violation, including blatantly unsafe things like changing lanes in an intersection which I've never seen punished in over 30 years.
Everyone would get every ticket, which means everyone would either become better drivers, or everyone would get super PO'd, and write their legislators asking for a better solution and the law would be changed.

The roadside judicial system keeps a bad system in place - it neither makes us safer nor motivates us to change it.
The NRA's system seems from your anecdote to be a bad system as well. But asking them to change it just for you creates the same problem as not giving out speeding tickets, and complaining to us about it certainly isn't changing the system for everyone.

But seriously, to other instructors - I've been thinking about doing this in the near future... but it sounds from jfh's post like I could make an extra mortgage payment or two with the money it's going to cost me every year. Is that generally the case? It seems like they really want people to instruct, but why would I, when I could buy a couple extra pieces every year with that money?
 
Robert Hairless said:
Or is it that you're just tired of reading message threads about the National Rifle Association in forums for gun owners and wish people would talk about other things.
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Nope. Tired of gun owners, firearms enthusiasts, and gun rights supporters sniping at each other ad nauseum over something that gets rehashed here on THR at least once a week. It is an unproductive, useless waste of time to bring the issue up yet again.

Brad
 
Nope. Tired of gun owners, firearms enthusiasts, and gun rights supporters sniping at each other ad nauseum over something that gets rehashed here on THR at least once a week. It is an unproductive, useless waste of time to bring the issue up yet again.
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Brad, I understand that better than "Oh no, not again... :rolleyes:" My first thought was that I had spilled spaghetti sauce on my Benelli yet again and you disapproved. Now that you've explained things I expect everyone to stop talking about the NRA and everything else that annoys you. Just jump in to any thread you don't like and order its immediate termination. Ignore anyone who suggests that you could simply skip what doesn't interest you, the way others do. No compromise. Make them do what you want.
 
Now let me get this straight

The OP is grateful for the efforts of the NRA in defending gun rights. Most of us are in that boat.

Sarge encountered an apathetic/irritating member contact person, and it bugs him. Most of us have experienced that, although more likely at the post office or some other bureaucracy. That doesn't mean that Sarge is a bad guy. It's just that he's got a beef. The unfortunate thing is that a)he doesn't seem to have taken steps to keep others from the same treatment, and b)that doesn't mean the NRA should be written off, now, does it?

Sounds fixable to me. Now Bob and Brad, you're just going to have to take it outside :D
 
Robert Hairless said:
Nope. Tired of gun owners, firearms enthusiasts, and gun rights supporters sniping at each other ad nauseum over something that gets rehashed here on THR at least once a week. It is an unproductive, useless waste of time to bring the issue up yet again.
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Brad, I understand that better than "Oh no, not again... " My first thought was that I had spilled spaghetti sauce on my Benelli yet again and you disapproved. Now that you've explained things I expect everyone to stop talking about the NRA and everything else that annoys you. Just jump in to any thread you don't like and order its immediate termination. Ignore anyone who suggests that you could simply skip what doesn't interest you, the way others do. No compromise. Make them do what you want.
Click to expand...

Oh no, not again... :rolleyes:


rust collector said:
Sounds fixable to me. Now Bob and Brad, you're just going to have to take it outside
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Well, it is rather nice out today. I think a range trip is in order. :D


Brad
 
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