Kahr PM9 vs. Kel Tec P-3AT ???

[JackDRipper]

Been looking to get a 9mm Kahr PM9 for awhile and now wonder about the yet to be released .380 Kel Tec P-3AT. New weapon to be used as a pocket CCW weapon. Have made a comparison chart below for the Kahr and other Kel Tec pistols. Wondering which to get? What do you think? Thanks,
JR

PM9 P-3AT P-32 P-11 Model

9mm .380 .32 9mm Caliber

5.3†5.2†5.1†5.6†Length

4.0 3.5 3.5 4.3 Height

.90 .77 .75 1.0 Width

14 oz 7.2 oz 6.6 oz 14 oz Weight

1.9 oz 2.8 oz 2.8 oz 6 oz Mag Weight
loaded
6+1 6+1 7+1 10+1 Capacity

$660 $305 $300 $314 List Price
Blue
same $ $??? $355 $368 Chrome

$489+ $??? $219-239 $249-269 Street Price

 

[Blackhawk]

The loaded PM9 mag weighs more than 1.9 ounces....

Having carried a P-32 for a while, I'd get the P3AT, which is the same size and weight for all practical purposes. The light weight is a BIG deal, it turns out.

I also have a P-11, and it's too big for a pocket pistol.

 

[Tall Man]

Jack - To properly compare and contrast your pistol choices, we have to remove the as-yet nonexistant P-3AT from the equation.

[A brief interjection: Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380? The title "P32" is self-explanatory, leaving only the P11 as the product needing research to determine the chambered caliber.]

P32:
The P32 is notable for its slimness and light weight, even when fully loaded. The absence of external controls makes the pistol functionally similar to a Glock pistol, although the P32 does not have a slide release lever. 32acp ball is a modest round that can certainly be lethal with proper shot placement. Risk of feeding problems due to rim lock is, in my experience, negligible at best. P32s are reasonably reliable. Kel-Tec customer service is universally acknowledged as excellent. Kel-Tec engineers and manufactures its firearms in the US of A.

P11:
With adjusments for caliber, what is true of the P32 is also true for the P11.

PM9:
From an aesthetic point of view, the PM9 is the best looking weapon being discussed here. The reliability of a Kahr pistol is reasonable to excellent. As you are already aware, there is a measurable variance in price between a Kel-Tec pistol and a Kahr pistol - the Kahr product is considerably more expensive.

P-3AT
Not yet available for rating.

Tall Man's recommendation? Get the Kahr PM9. Better yet, get a Glock 19. Always try to carry the most bang for your buck (in the sense that shooting bigger holes sometimes demands a bit more lucre at the front end.)

Let us know what you chose to purchase.

TM

TFL Alumnus

 

[Blackhawk]

With adjusments for caliber, what is true of the P32 is also true for the P11.

The P-11 has a slide release, and it's a true DAO. The P-32 has a hammer block and leaves the hammer partially energized after racking the slide or firing a round, which is how it ends up with a 5-6# trigger.

The P-11 also has discrete sights that can be replaced whereas the P-32's sights are integral in the slide.

The P-32's slide locks open after the last round as does the P-11, but the P3AT's doesn't.

 

[Kilgor]

[A brief interjection: Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380? The title "P32" is self-explanatory, leaving only the P11 as the product needing research to determine the chambered caliber.]

They did. Sound out P-3AT.

 

[Coot]

I own both the P32 and PM9, and find myself carrying the P32 more often; which pistol I reach for depends on the level of perceived threat for the day. I expect to switch over to a P3AT once it becomes available.

 

[tomkatz]

Tall Man's recommendation? Get the Kahr PM9. Better yet, get a Glock 19. Always try to carry the most bang for your buck (in the sense that shooting bigger holes sometimes demands a bit more lucre at the front end.)

I agree on the pm9 and the glock, but the glock 26 would seem to be more in the ballpark size wise than the 19, but then we are getting into heavier guns. I would always take the 9 over the 380 if weight and cost is not an issue.....tom

 

[Onslaught]

Kilgor wrote:

They did. Sound out P-3AT.

Gosh I'm slow! Very funny! thanks for the lightbulb Kilgor.

I had a P32 (two actually) and sold it because I kept carrying it ALL THE TIME. I found myself leaving my Kahr 40 at home, even though I COULD have carried it, I just didn't. This, to me, was a bad influence, so I kicked the habit. I may have to have a P3-AT (that still cracks me up!) since the .380's performance so closely resembles the .38 snubbie, which is what I carry in my pocket now.

I agree on the pm9 and the glock, but the glock 26 would seem to be more in the ballpark size wise than the 19, but then we are getting into heavier guns.

I've owned both, and handled the PM9. Not even the same ballpark sizewise... Some guys can pocket or ankle carry a G26, but not most, and NOT ME!

If the PM9 fits, then I'd take that over the KT. If it's still too big for your pocket, then the 3-AT will certainly fit.

 

[mini14jac]

I've got to agree with the "carry the most bang" statement.
I've got a P32, and PM9.
The P32 was my "always gun", until I got the PM9.

No matter how hard I try, pocket carry is the only thing that works for me.
With all but the tightest jeans, I can easily carry the PM9.
I'll probably have a P3AT some day, because it is basically a P32 as far as size and weight go, and I do believe in "bigger is better" when it comes to caliber.

But, realistically, unless you have a dealer who is really well connected, you won't see a P3AT for at least a year.
(I hope KelTec proves me wrong. -fingers crossed-)

PM9s have only recently become readily available.
I got mine about 4 months after they supposedly hit the market.
Luckily, I haven't had any problems in 250 rounds.

The first P3ATs will no doubt have numerous problems.
I did free "T&E" for NAA Guardian 32, and for the KelTec P32.
Lots of failures, trips to the factory, phone calls, emails, expensive shipping, etc.

I think I'll sit this one out.

 

[22luvr]

Make mine a P-3AT

Once upon a time, I considered a PM9 but found the price prohibitively expensive. Also, I don't consider the almost 19oz fully-loaded weight as especially "light." Light for this fussy pocket-carrier is a pound or less. While I really prefer the 9mm round, I'll go with the .380 in a package not much larger than a P32. I've owned both a P11 and a P32 and like kel-Tec products.

I much prefer the way Kel-Tec mates the slide to the frame/grip via a heavy-duty aluminum block; not like Kahr's steel rails imbedded in polymer. Should the P-3AT come with the integral stacked sights like the P32, I'll have no problems with that because the diamond-shaped slider makes the Kel-Tec an excellent point-and-shoot piece, plus keeping the profile from lookig "blocky" in the pocket.

Also having experienced kel-Tec's excellent customer service first-hand, I'd rate that a definite advantage over Kahr.

I guess familiarity breeds confidence; having taken down both Kel-Tec products gives me a confidence in the parts, workmaship, and my own ability to make minor repairs.

 

[Tall Man]

Blackhawk compensated for my incomplete information regarding the Kel-Tec pistols. Well done.

Kilgor said: They did. Sound out P-3AT.

Nope. There's no reason to brand the new pistol with such a lame and ambiguous moniker when 'P-380' is perfectly serviceable.

TM

 

[Kilgor]

Then call KelTec and complain.

 

[tomkatz]

One more option, wait for the rohrbaugh, instead of a downsized larger gun, a whole new design. The thing I like about kel-tec is they design guns that are small and light relative to their calibers, kahr and glock just make the big guns shorter.....tom

 

[Watch-Six]

I have a Kahr PM9 that I pocket carry with no problem. I once had a Kel Tec P32 and really liked it, except even after three trips to the factory it was not reliable. It had various problems, and rim locks do happen. I will probably try a P3AT when they come out just because they are so darn light weight. That would be nice in very low risk settings. For anything of higher risk I will still go with the PM9 or the light weight commander 45. Watch-Six

 

[duncan]

The main difference is the weight.

Will you carry the Kahr PM9? For the ballistics, you are going to get into the 400 FPE range with that 9mm mini.

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .

It's no better than the anemic 120 FPE I currently get out of my 71 grain Fiocchi 32 ACP rounds in my KT P-32. 22 FPE is basically identical to me from a decision standpoint.

So if you have a P-32 - keep it - the new 380 does not offer you a real world advantage. For me, they are backup or ooppss guns. But the 9mm Kahr is something you can use as a primary CCW gun.

But for deep and no bones about it I'm always carrying it or the glovebox, the P-32 or the 380 ACP version is hard to beat.

Sold my Kahr E-9 not because it wasn't accurate and reliable but because it was a brick. Weight matters.

If this is your primary CCW gun, at least go 9mm. 40SW better.

 

[rgc]

I may be mistaken . . .

however, I believe another company used the name P-380 some time ago for a gun that was not that great. Hence, why kel-tec went with P-3AT. However, with a gun that size, in 380, and at that price they can call it whatever they want . . . . I'm getting one as soon as I can.

 

[Hawkman]

Tall man,

Davis (a company not known for fine firarms) produced a stinker called the P380. I 'spect Keltec did not want the association, or it might have been copyrighted.

 

[stevec]

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .

It's no better than the anemic 120 FPE I currently get out of my 71 grain Fiocchi 32 ACP rounds in my KT P-32. 22 FPE is basically identical to me from a decision standpoint.

While I agree its pretty strange that so many people are pushing a gun that nobody has held, shot, or even seen - I think you are missing an important point. The .380 rounds will be up there around 95gr, versus 71gr for your .32. At the same FPE, I'd expect the 95gr bullet to penetrate deeper - one thing that might cut that down is the the slightly lower cross sectional density of the 95gr .380 vs. 71gr .32.

Steve

 

[Blackhawk]

While I agree its pretty strange that so many people are pushing a gun that nobody has held, shot, or even seen....

Not to mention all the problems they "have" with reliability, quality control, etc....

 

[Johnny Guest]

Blackhawk's quote of stevec's remark- - -

- - -Concerning the P3AT applies even more strongly to the ecstatic raves some are giving the Rohrbaugh. Lotsa people waxing enthuriastic about THAT little item, proclaiming it the greatest gift to concealed carry since - - -Since what? I dunno.

One thing about it--Kel Tec CNC has been in production with various items for several years. Some teething problems, yes, but they have sold a LOT of working guns, many to otherwise unarmed persons, who just plain carry 'em and don't frequent the firearms boards.

Has Rohrbaugh ever produced ANY pocket pistol, or ANY design?

No criticism of the product, but no sweeping endorsement, either, until I get hold of one to examine and shoot and such . . .

Best,
Johnny

 

[Blackhawk]

It sure does apply more strongly to Rohrbaugh, Johnny!

Kel-Tec CNC presumably made other things before it started making guns, but Rohrbaugh is a brand new company that's never made anything.

I'm totally convinced that KT can pull off the P-3AT, but I'm only optimistic that Rohrbaugh can pull off its design. But the designs of both are quite meritorious, and that's the reason for my enthusiasm, especially for the Rohrbaugh.

With a 2.7" barrel, the Rohrbaugh is going to be lucky to get standard ammo up to 300 FPE, so it will be about as much better than a .380 as a .380 is over a .32. It will also have, IMO, a lot of flash and noise. With a locked breech design, I'm positive that the gun will work, but I don't have a good idea how durable it will be or whether its high price will be acceptable to the market. Its weight is less than a KT P-11, and being considerably smaller, it might be a handful to shoot. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[22luvr]

Good discussion here.....

Concerning the Rohrbagh: I'll probably grow old and die before I see a production model of one of those!

Kel-Tec? Not only do I think the P-3AT will be in great demand and wildly popular but also very reliable, once the roll-out bugs are worked out.

Not only that, but I'll make a prediction that Kel-Tec will eventually make the smallest, lightest, and most affordable 9mm pistol, based on the P32 platform.

If it's going to be smaller, lighter, and affordable, Kel-Tec will build'em.

 

[Gusgus]

Rohrbaugh, eh? Greatest thing since sliced bread, eh? Anyone remember Talon? A new American gun company, that came on the market a couple years ago with a polymer 9mm & .380 that where to revolutionize CCW? No? Don't remember them? You want to know why? Because their guns in real life, didn't live up to the hype, and they went belly up. Rohrbaugh has a lot of proving to do, before they become the god of CCW.

Personally, I'll probably add a P-3AT to my P-32. At least Kel-Tec has a proven track record, and great customer service.

 

[NJ3]

Not only that, but I'll make a prediction that Kel-Tec will eventually make the smallest, lightest, and most affordable 9mm pistol, based on the P32 platform.

I'm sure Kel-Tec will too, after they sell enough P-3AT's.

 

[Russ]

Kilgor,

That was good. I guess I'm a little dense but now that you pointed that little gem out, I like it! Now I will be able to remember it easily.

Of the guns you mention, the PM9 is going to be the best quality and alot more expensive than your other choices. Kahr's are neat litttle guns. I have an MK40 and it is great and extremely accurate.

I wonder how long it will take Kel-Tec to get the P-3AT into wide distribution?