dondavis3
Member
+1 christcorp
Thanks for the tip.
Thanks for the tip.
Considering buying a Kel-Tec P9 or P11 in 9 mm
- Thread starter dondavis3
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I own a PF9 as well as a Kahr PM9 and recently took to two to the range for a comparison. The short answer is, they're in a different league. Sure, they'll both fit in your pocket and shoot 9mm but after that the Kahr pulls away fast.
The trigger on the Kahr allow for MUCH both more accurate aimed groups and much better rapid fire groups.
The Kahr is much better balanced, IMO, and points much more naturally.
The Kahr weighs about 2 oz more but that weight and its configuration allow it to absorb recoil much better than the Kel-Tec.
Here are a few comparison photos:
Six round rapid fire test with the Kel-Tec (5 rounds on target):
Six round rapid fire test with the Kahr (6 rounds on target, only one outside of the 8 circle):
The trigger on the Kahr allow for MUCH both more accurate aimed groups and much better rapid fire groups.
The Kahr is much better balanced, IMO, and points much more naturally.
The Kahr weighs about 2 oz more but that weight and its configuration allow it to absorb recoil much better than the Kel-Tec.
Here are a few comparison photos:
Six round rapid fire test with the Kel-Tec (5 rounds on target):
Six round rapid fire test with the Kahr (6 rounds on target, only one outside of the 8 circle):
dondavis3
Member
What's the price comparisons?
valorius
member
I know it's not the same model, but i had a Kel Tec P32, and i had nothing but problems with it. I have to say it was a pretty cheaply built gun.
I would sum up the entire Kel Tec line with that quote, based on my experience with them.Joe Demko said:
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christcorp
Member
You can get the PF9 and P11 Kel-tec for between $250-$300. So, while I agree that the Kahr is better overall in trigger, aiming, etc...; is it $300-$400 BETTER???? I say NO.
Just like the Hi-Point arguments. There is no doubt that my Kimber, Sig, S&W, Dan Wesson, and a few others are "Better" than my Hi-Point. But if a person wants a gun just for fun and to be a reliable and dependable home defense weapon, is my Kimber $1000 BETTER than my Hi-Point? HELL NO!!!! Is my Sig P220 $700 BETTER than my Hi-Point? Again, HELL NO.
The Kel-tec is one of the best bargain guns out there. Don't confuse bargain with cheap. And don't confuse cheap with inexpensive. Kel-tec, Hi-point, mil surplus like the CZ-82, PA-64, P63, etc... are all part of bargain guns. Truth is: It's not that Kel-tec, hi-point, etc... are CHEAP. It's that glock, Sig, HK, Colt, Kimber, etc... are "OVER-PRICED". You're paying for a name. Yes, there are most definitely some quality areas in Kahr over a Kel-tec. A person would have to be rationalizing or a moron to say they were identical and equal all the way around. But the question is: Are the differences in the Kahr over the Kel-tec worth $300-$400 more???? If the less expensive gun was unreliable, undependable, inaccurate, etc... then most definitely yes. A $250-$300 is useless, no matter how inexpensive it is, if it doesn't function as designed and needed. But in the case of the Kel-Tec, it functions exactly as intended. So functionally and quality, the Kahr isn't worth the extra $300-$400.
However, as Americans, we many times buy something simply because we LIKE IT. And there isn't anything wrong with that at all. That's why I have a Kimber, Sig, Dan Wesson, etc... That's why I've owned numerous sports cars. Simply because i wanted it, and I liked it. So for that, the extra $300-$400 is well worth it. You're paying $250-$300 for the functional part of the gun, and another $300-$400 for the aesthetics, ergonomics, feel, and name. Again, nothing wrong with that at all. As long as we aren't rationalizing our purchase to other people when all they want is a reliable and dependable gun that they can carry, defend themselves with, and have some fun with once in a while.
Just like the Hi-Point arguments. There is no doubt that my Kimber, Sig, S&W, Dan Wesson, and a few others are "Better" than my Hi-Point. But if a person wants a gun just for fun and to be a reliable and dependable home defense weapon, is my Kimber $1000 BETTER than my Hi-Point? HELL NO!!!! Is my Sig P220 $700 BETTER than my Hi-Point? Again, HELL NO.
The Kel-tec is one of the best bargain guns out there. Don't confuse bargain with cheap. And don't confuse cheap with inexpensive. Kel-tec, Hi-point, mil surplus like the CZ-82, PA-64, P63, etc... are all part of bargain guns. Truth is: It's not that Kel-tec, hi-point, etc... are CHEAP. It's that glock, Sig, HK, Colt, Kimber, etc... are "OVER-PRICED". You're paying for a name. Yes, there are most definitely some quality areas in Kahr over a Kel-tec. A person would have to be rationalizing or a moron to say they were identical and equal all the way around. But the question is: Are the differences in the Kahr over the Kel-tec worth $300-$400 more???? If the less expensive gun was unreliable, undependable, inaccurate, etc... then most definitely yes. A $250-$300 is useless, no matter how inexpensive it is, if it doesn't function as designed and needed. But in the case of the Kel-Tec, it functions exactly as intended. So functionally and quality, the Kahr isn't worth the extra $300-$400.
However, as Americans, we many times buy something simply because we LIKE IT. And there isn't anything wrong with that at all. That's why I have a Kimber, Sig, Dan Wesson, etc... That's why I've owned numerous sports cars. Simply because i wanted it, and I liked it. So for that, the extra $300-$400 is well worth it. You're paying $250-$300 for the functional part of the gun, and another $300-$400 for the aesthetics, ergonomics, feel, and name. Again, nothing wrong with that at all. As long as we aren't rationalizing our purchase to other people when all they want is a reliable and dependable gun that they can carry, defend themselves with, and have some fun with once in a while.
valorius
member
In a gun fight (or a competition) you are trying to get a slight advantage over your adversary. So if your gun gives you a 3% better chance of hitting, is 1% faster into action, and 4% faster between shots, etc, etc...to me, yes, an expensive firearm can absolutely be "worth it."
christcorp
Member
First of all, screw competition. That is a totally different purpose and functionality. I'm not taking my 66 mustang to the mountains to haul firewood either.
2nd; gun fights? Be real. We're talking about "Self Defense". Not a "Gun Fight". If you happen to be a member of a gang, and plan on a gun fight, then find a different forum. Maybe "Gunfighters.com" has one.
3rd: You already have a major advantage over any criminal that you're going to pull a weapon on. S/He most likely doesn't do much practicing with their gun. 90%+ of crimes against another person, who is a stranger, is done for economic reasons. If the criminal needs money, for whatever, they aren't out their practicing at the range with their pistol.
4th: If you're using a competition to measure a 3% increase in accuracy and a 1% increase in speed, and a 4% increase in between shots, then you're living in a fantasy world. Next time you get jumped from behind, and your heart is racing, and the adrenaline is pumping, and your breathing is so fast you can't relax, and your brain is thinking about 10 different things at the same time; make sure that you have the criminal start the timer for you.
REAL LIFE: You probably won't get even one shot off. If you do have to fire, you most likely won't get past 3 shots fired. It WILL be over by then. Which way it goes, is pretty much up to you. You aren't going to have some measurable advantage with the Kahr over the kel-tec. Just like you're not going to have any noticeable advantage with a glock over a hi-point. Some people watch way too many movies with "gun fights" in them. That's why Taekwondo isn't very practical for self defense. It is designed around "RULES". Real life: There are no rules.
2nd; gun fights? Be real. We're talking about "Self Defense". Not a "Gun Fight". If you happen to be a member of a gang, and plan on a gun fight, then find a different forum. Maybe "Gunfighters.com" has one.
3rd: You already have a major advantage over any criminal that you're going to pull a weapon on. S/He most likely doesn't do much practicing with their gun. 90%+ of crimes against another person, who is a stranger, is done for economic reasons. If the criminal needs money, for whatever, they aren't out their practicing at the range with their pistol.
4th: If you're using a competition to measure a 3% increase in accuracy and a 1% increase in speed, and a 4% increase in between shots, then you're living in a fantasy world. Next time you get jumped from behind, and your heart is racing, and the adrenaline is pumping, and your breathing is so fast you can't relax, and your brain is thinking about 10 different things at the same time; make sure that you have the criminal start the timer for you.
REAL LIFE: You probably won't get even one shot off. If you do have to fire, you most likely won't get past 3 shots fired. It WILL be over by then. Which way it goes, is pretty much up to you. You aren't going to have some measurable advantage with the Kahr over the kel-tec. Just like you're not going to have any noticeable advantage with a glock over a hi-point. Some people watch way too many movies with "gun fights" in them. That's why Taekwondo isn't very practical for self defense. It is designed around "RULES". Real life: There are no rules.
migkillertwo
Member
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I for one would opine that a reasonably-good-condition police trade-in glock IS 350$ better than a Hi-point, and that a Ruger P95 IS 200$ better than the hi-point.
migkillertwo
Member
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And what if the guy doesn't want money? Do you know how many gangs want recruits to injure or kill a man as an initiation into their gang? a whole friggin lot. So don't talk about shootouts like they're "Gunfights" and that gunfights "never happen"
shiftyer1
Member
So I see you bought a p 11. How do you like it. I have no complaints with mine, other than the trigger. Although thats only a problem at the range, in a two handed grip the muzzle movement isn't bad at all. Over all this gun (to me) is a great self defense weapon. It's not meant to be a 50 yard range gun!!! At short distances I hit a pie plate consistantly at 10 yards or so. Thats great for what it is. Did you figure out your jamming issues?
dondavis3
Member
I ended up selling my Kel-Tec P11.
To me life is to short to have to endure that bad of a trigger.
It was not only the harshness of the trigger.
But also the shape of the trigger hurt my finger when I shot more than a few rounds.
I bought and added the available trigger shoe, but it didn't help.:banghead:
I'm glad you like yours
To me life is to short to have to endure that bad of a trigger.
It was not only the harshness of the trigger.
But also the shape of the trigger hurt my finger when I shot more than a few rounds.
I bought and added the available trigger shoe, but it didn't help.:banghead:
I'm glad you like yours
I still have mine Don but I definitely understand how you feel about the trigger. It is pretty hard to shoot. I haven't tried the trigger shoe but I did heat the trigger up with a blow dryer & bend it back a little. It seemed to help me some.
mbruce
Member
My pf9 kicks like a beast and has had no malfunctions at a 700 rounds. I don't like to shoot it and rarely shoot it anymore -- It's my CCW ---I'm good enough to use it if needed. -- and with the beast like kick that's good enough for me.
MY Kahr pm9 was sent back to the factory due to FTF issues.
This isn't a crack on Keltec but not sure if anyone should buy a keltec pistol such as the pf9 or p11 hoping for it to be a range gun or fun shooter -- just not what they are designed to do -- if they make a mini .45acp then i'll buy that too.
MY Kahr pm9 was sent back to the factory due to FTF issues.
This isn't a crack on Keltec but not sure if anyone should buy a keltec pistol such as the pf9 or p11 hoping for it to be a range gun or fun shooter -- just not what they are designed to do -- if they make a mini .45acp then i'll buy that too.
Armored farmer
Member
When my buddy and I got our ccp's...he bought a KT P-11. He paid $225 for it used. We took his P-11 and my Ruger SP 101 to the range. The P-11 looked cheap, felt cheap, was cheap. However, after getting used to the trigger...we were both punching holes in paper plates with ease @ 20yds.
I shot the P11 better than my sp101!
I say go for one....I'd probably get the P11 just because of the mag cap.(I think the mags interchange with a S&W mag??)
I shot the P11 better than my sp101!
I say go for one....I'd probably get the P11 just because of the mag cap.(I think the mags interchange with a S&W mag??)
hardluk1
member
I have both a pf-9 and a p-11. I carry the pf-9 ever day ,it is my go to pocket gun. I know it is big in some peoples eyes for a front pocket but it fits well and unlike some of the smaller pistols it does not get lost. Also is flat enough that it does not stand out with a pocket holster. I have run around 900 hardball and 250 hornady CD rounds through it with zero problems. It will not fail even holding with 2 fingers loosly and fireing. Just allways goes bang. I have carried it about a year and a half now.
I bought a p-11 as there are times i would like a few more rounds just in case like when on the road. Brand new out of the box i did have a coulpe times the slide locked back and i could not find a reason way so called KT, talked to a tech and they sent a shipping order for it. Pistol came back in a 2 week time frame with all replaced but the slide and has works great . I have around 500 hardball and 150 hornady CD rounds thru it and am starting to carry a bit. It does not work as well as a pocket pistol with the double stack mag and thicker slide but is ok for most times. Neither pistol is a range gun or fun to shoot for me but they do there job well. The trigger on the pf-9 is a better trigger but the p-11 is not bad for its intended purpose. I also have a S&W model 59 mag for my p-11 that carries 15 rounds, Works great and i use it for most range time to give that little finger something to hold on to. Also bought a slip over for it to fill out the extra mag area. Works great. Carry the 15 rounder in my back or side pocket as a back up and that gives me 26 rounds.
Both triggers do smooth up with use. They both cost me less than 250 new with the p-11 at 238 around 3 months ago. Both have black slides . Finish on both as just OK only but for the price you pay it don't bother me one bit. Never did buy a gun for its finish or look, only how it well it does it job. I did do the fluff and buff on both and look for anything to file smoother but i do that to anything i buy. Did the same F&B to my glocks. I have yet to carry the glocks as they are just to bulky and heavier if 20oz plus is heavy. Just like these light pistols.
The metal guide rods can also rub on the barrels. The plastic one work fine. Glock used them to for decades. Don't screw with a carry gun.
I bought a p-11 as there are times i would like a few more rounds just in case like when on the road. Brand new out of the box i did have a coulpe times the slide locked back and i could not find a reason way so called KT, talked to a tech and they sent a shipping order for it. Pistol came back in a 2 week time frame with all replaced but the slide and has works great . I have around 500 hardball and 150 hornady CD rounds thru it and am starting to carry a bit. It does not work as well as a pocket pistol with the double stack mag and thicker slide but is ok for most times. Neither pistol is a range gun or fun to shoot for me but they do there job well. The trigger on the pf-9 is a better trigger but the p-11 is not bad for its intended purpose. I also have a S&W model 59 mag for my p-11 that carries 15 rounds, Works great and i use it for most range time to give that little finger something to hold on to. Also bought a slip over for it to fill out the extra mag area. Works great. Carry the 15 rounder in my back or side pocket as a back up and that gives me 26 rounds.
Both triggers do smooth up with use. They both cost me less than 250 new with the p-11 at 238 around 3 months ago. Both have black slides . Finish on both as just OK only but for the price you pay it don't bother me one bit. Never did buy a gun for its finish or look, only how it well it does it job. I did do the fluff and buff on both and look for anything to file smoother but i do that to anything i buy. Did the same F&B to my glocks. I have yet to carry the glocks as they are just to bulky and heavier if 20oz plus is heavy. Just like these light pistols.
The metal guide rods can also rub on the barrels. The plastic one work fine. Glock used them to for decades. Don't screw with a carry gun.
Caliper_Mi
Member
I handled both the PF9 and P11 (among others) before choosing the PF9.
For me, the PF9 has:
A more comfortable grip (P11 is too blocky)
Thinner (I'm a skinny guy so like something skinny to tuck IWB)
Better trigger pull. (It is long, but is smooth and not too heavy)
Better looks
I got the hard chrome finish because it is for carry and gets exposed to alot of sweat and skin oils.
I am a bit jealous of the longer barrel on a Kahr CW9, but after holding one found I do not like Kahrs grip angle. Too upright. YMMV.
I do not understand people who complain so much of the kick on a PF9. Sure, it is noticeable, but after a box of ammo I was entirely used to it. No problem running multiple boxes of 115gr through it at a time. Now, I ran a few 124gr +P rounds through the little gun last time out. That did give the recoil a noticeable bump! I could also feel the slide hit the frame during cycling which reminds you why KT says the PF9 is not rated for continuous +P use.
It has never had a FTF even though I have NOT done the famous "fluff and buff". The extractor spring screw did loosen at one point causing some FTE's. I have since loctited that screw and no more issues.
For me, the PF9 has:
A more comfortable grip (P11 is too blocky)
Thinner (I'm a skinny guy so like something skinny to tuck IWB)
Better trigger pull. (It is long, but is smooth and not too heavy)
Better looks
I got the hard chrome finish because it is for carry and gets exposed to alot of sweat and skin oils.
I am a bit jealous of the longer barrel on a Kahr CW9, but after holding one found I do not like Kahrs grip angle. Too upright. YMMV.
I do not understand people who complain so much of the kick on a PF9. Sure, it is noticeable, but after a box of ammo I was entirely used to it. No problem running multiple boxes of 115gr through it at a time. Now, I ran a few 124gr +P rounds through the little gun last time out. That did give the recoil a noticeable bump! I could also feel the slide hit the frame during cycling which reminds you why KT says the PF9 is not rated for continuous +P use.
It has never had a FTF even though I have NOT done the famous "fluff and buff". The extractor spring screw did loosen at one point causing some FTE's. I have since loctited that screw and no more issues.
fatcat4620
Member
Also note that the p11 has flush fit 12 rounders and will s&w 15 rounders as well
Ragtop5969
member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2011
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Kel-Tec makes an excellent product for it's intended purpose at the price point!
When Ruger cloned the P3AT and now the PF-9, that is a true testimony of design excellence.
Ruger will never be able to match Kel-Tec's service and that puts KT further in front of them for the market share. Then there is that nagging issue of the Ruger recall.
When Ruger cloned the P3AT and now the PF-9, that is a true testimony of design excellence.
Ruger will never be able to match Kel-Tec's service and that puts KT further in front of them for the market share. Then there is that nagging issue of the Ruger recall.
FruitCake
Member
To answer the Original question I would choose the PF9. I have one and I love it. Now if you asked Kahr or Keltec then yes the kahr obviously but that's not what you were asking.
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