Kahr PM9 vs. Kel Tec P-3AT ???

[Chan Bates]

Rorhbagh 9MM

I have heard about this gun in its currently described configuration for about two years. They are not claiming to make any other model. They have shown it at two shot shows, I believe, and this if they show up will be their third.

Why isn't this gun in production?

May I hazard a guess?

It doesn't work, or at least it doesn't do what they hoped it would.

Maybe it is too tough to shoot a lightweight, blowback, short
barreled powerhouse.

Maybe it isn't robust enough to hold up to the battering it generates.

Maybe the mechanical balance (feed-eject-feed) is almost impossible to achieve for reliability (something lightweight Kel-Tecs initially had to overcome).

Maybe it will have to be too expensive, especially considering it may have other problems.

Maybe it's all of the above and more, but the availability date seems to keep slipping, and when that runs into years instead of months, it's not much of a strecth to predict severe problems, or that it may never reach the market.

In the mean time, one of my trusty KT P-40's w/10+1 capacity and a backup hi-cap mag disappears in my Thunderwear and I feel very well armed. I don't see the need for the Rohrbagh, Kahr 9MM or a P-3AT, for me.

CB3

 

[smooth operator]

It depends on when you want to make your purchase. The KT is not currently available. I don't feel you can compare what's available to something that is not currently available. It's like comparing apples & walnuts. Once the KT is in production there will most likely be a huge demand that will overwelm availabilty-that is the price will go up. Around here when the p-32 was 1st introduced it sold at the MSRP. Once there were enough guns in the market place the price settled down. Like the p-32 there will be some bugs to be worked out. KT will stand behind the product, but it may take some time to get the bugs worked out. I'll probably wind up buying one to compliment my p-11 & p-32, but I'm not getting excited just yet for the reasons I mentioned.

Jerry

 

[cratz2]

I think you're torn between the desire to have something that easily fits in your pocket and something that a 90% or better one shot stop record.

They're not really comparable guns. The P32 is tiny as should be the new 380. The P32 hardly kicks, if a 6 year old girl is capable of pulling the trigger, she can handle the recoil. Maybe not accurately but still. I doun't think my daughter would want any part of the recoil on the Kahr. Plus it and the P11 are just too big for most people's pockets, not only because of size but because of weight with the Kahr.

I don't wear jeans. I mostly wear Dockers type casual pants or dress pants. Without a belt, the Kahr I tried (the smallest all metal 9mm) was way too heavy to keep in the pocket so I would have to carry it IWB. If I'm going to carry something IWB, it's going to be a 1911 of some design, or if I embraced poly guns more, at least a Glock 36.

I don't know, the Kahw guns are very well made and shoot very nicely, I just personally feel they fill a niche that doesn't need to be filled. Too heavy for a pocket gun, to small to require a belt holster. I'll admit I've never tried the half polymer Kahrs but can't help but feel I would find the same faults to a lesser extent.

 

[22luvr]

Cratz makes some good points....

I also wear mostly pleated Docker-style pants. I carry no other way than in the right-front pocket. I also tried the Kahrs, especially the MK9 (which is a beautiful piece) but with it's almost 24 oz empty weight, it felt like a boat anchor in my pocket.

To reiterate: the sliding, slipping anticipated rollout of the Rohrbaugh does not inspire confidence, not to mention the suggested price! You bet I'd like the ballistics of a 9mm in my right front pocket but there isn't one yet that I can carry there with the degree of comfort and concealability that I insist on.

If I want to tote some power, it's my Smith 340 SC with RBCD TFSP's (1,800 FPS, 500+ lbs energy) but there are places I go where I don't even trust the concealability of my J-frame.

I will put my money on a Kel-Tec. I've owned both the P11 and the P32. Kel-Tec makes a practical workman-like self-defense gun that is generally reliable, affordable, easy to work on, and carries a lifetime warranty. My money is definitely on the P-3AT; I think Kel-Tec has done their homework and paid the price. They are one of the fastest-growing firearms companies in America.......developing both useful and affordable pistols and rifles.

 

[scoop]

kel tec k40 and the little k-32 are real pos.the karh has them beat on quality.

 

[yzguy]

kel tec k40 and the little k-32 are real pos.the karh has them beat on quality

you can tell he knows exactly what he is talking about from direct experience by the incorrect names....

(BTW its' the P-40, P-11, P-32, and P-3AT)

Have you ever held/shot/owned any of these??

 

[smooth operator]

Cost is also a factor, not just the initial price. You have to consider what happens if you ever need to use it in a self defense situation. The first thing the LEO's will do is arrest you & impound the gun. After you clear yourself at the station, they will keep your gun for who knows how long. That is the reason I don't carry expensive guns. All my guns work & are reliable & if they are impounded I'm not out alot of money.
Jerry

 

[Blackhawk]

Chan,

I think the Rohrbaugh example was first shown at SHOT Show 2002, so this would be the second show, and one year in the buzz.

Last year, they said summer for release, then October, and for the past few months, they've been waiting for the BATF to sign off on production. Last Fall, they said it would debut at the SHOT Show next week, so it won't be much longer to wait to see if they pull it off. They have a booth, at least.

It's not a blowback design. It's a locked breech design that's supposed to kick like a PPK .380. We'll see on that too.

Nothing on the horizon is going to replace my P-11 or P-32, but examples of both the P-3AT and the Rohrbaugh are destined to join them when they show up....

 

[Badger Arms]

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .

You know, it amazes me how people will spout off some piece of unsupported crap and think that everybody will accept it as fact. In reality, the 380 is significantly more powerful than is claimed above and the 32 significantly less powerful.

Best energy for .32 is Fiocci 73gr at 877fps for 125fpe
Best energy for 380 is Corbon 90gr at 963fps for 185fpe
That's about 50% greater energy from a 1/8" shorter barrel than we will have in the P3AT.

NAA 380 Ballistics
NAA 32 ACP Ballistics
NAA Energy Conversions

 

[Kilgor]

Here's another few data points of .380acp chrono data.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IVG10.html

This one includes the 102 grain golden saber and also compares a short barrel (AMT Backup) and a full size barrel (Makarov).

They all produce roughly the same amount of energy from a short barrel in .380 from what I am reading. I want penetration first, then expansion. I worry that the Corbon will not penetrate enough. Since energy is roughly the same in all loads it will depend on how the bullet is constructed as to whether it will open too fast. I guess I will have to do some expansion and penetration tests myself.

Kilgor

 

[JohnBT]

Anybody know the current MSRP on the P-32? I've read that the P-3AT will list for $5 more and I'm Number One on the waiting list at the gun store. Just curious, because I'm getting one.

I have a P-32 in the 12xxx range, so I figure I've gotten my money's worth out of it. Two or three years times $.40 a day equals more than I have in it. Now, if I figure how much it cost me per hour of carry time...I give up, what is it...$.02 an hour?

I'll buy the Rohrbaugh when it gets here and try it too. More hearsay...I've read that a big part of the delay is due to the demand created by pre-release hoopla - like this thread. They needed to line up a whole bunch o' bucks to tool up to make it in quantity.

John

 

[Blackhawk]

I'll buy the Rohrbaugh when it gets here and try it too. More hearsay...I've read that a big part of the delay is due to the demand created by pre-release hoopla - like this thread. They needed to line up a whole bunch o' bucks to tool up to make it in quantity.

Don't think so, John.

They had their CNC machines installed in about October, but last I heard before the SHOT Show, the BATF still had not approved their manufacturing production guns. So, Rohrbaugh is sitting there with all their machines set up, ready, and proven and their staff ready to turn them on and make parts, but they can't legally do that until the BATF issues the needed paperwork.

I have to keep reminding myself that even burrocrats can have reasonable excuses for failing to do their jobs. In the BATF's case, they've just been reorganized, they have a huge backpack from NOT doing a "journeyman" job under their mandate for a long while, and especially after 9/11. IOW, the BATF just may be too busy to bother with a startup gun manufacturer.

Political influence would help Rohrbaugh, but their senators are Hitlery and Chuckie Schumer....

 

[alamo]

Someone talked to the Rohrbaugh people at the Shot Show & they said it would be May before they start shipping.

 

[Zander]

Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380?

For some time, Kel-Tec has been exporting P-11s in .380 caliber to foreign markets. Maybe they didn't want the attendant confusion...

 

[QKRTHNU]

In comparing the 9s don't forget that the P-11 while being only marginally bigger and weighing ~ the same as the PM9 & new Rohrbaugh R-9 manages to hold 10+1 from the factory and has cheap readily available 12,15&17rd hicaps.

My vote for the 9 is the P-11.

And I deffinately want a P-3AT.

 

[Blackhawk]

alamo wrote:

Someone talked to the Rohrbaugh people at the Shot Show & they said it would be May before they start shipping.

I believe that was predicated on their BATF "number" being issued forthwith. However, they've expected "the number" since November or so.

 

[JohnBT]

Blackhawk - Wasn't it your name that was mentioned somewhere in the pre-production publicity thread? Maybe not.

They did go out and buy some nice equipment last year, didn't they? Let's see, they announce a summer rollout and don't get the CNC stuff set up until October. Lack of adequate timely financing maybe? I dunno.

John...just following the rumors as best I can.

 

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk - Wasn't it your name that was mentioned somewhere in the pre-production publicity thread?

Jeff mentioned that it came up among those at the Rohrbaugh booth at the SHOT Show on his Day one report on his website: http://www.shotshowreports.com

It's certainly no secret that after finding out about the gun from Jeff's report last year, I've been an enthusiastic potential "early adopter" as evidenced by the many posts I've made about the guns. I've also investigated, asked questions, talked to the folks at Rohrbaugh, and gotten my pennies ready to buy one.

I'm not, however, affiliated in any way with the company even though I wish them great success and firmly believe that their R-9 is going to fill a niche among pocket pistols -- namely a 9mm Mighty Mouse gun the size of a P-32. I don't see how they can go wrong with their locked breech design, and I want one -- or more!

 

[another okie]

I looked at a P9 and an MP9 today at the gun show. The little gun was almost $600, the P9 was around $450 (different dealers). The little gun is indeed little, but not as light as you might think. I carry a Taurus titanium snubbie for pocket carry, and the MP9 is heaver and blockier, though it is definitely thinner and shorter. I think the shape of the revolver conceals more naturally. I would like to have both those Kahrs, but I can give Glock a little more time to produce a slim 9mm.