RockyMtnTactical
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,539
I'd take the Saiga. I have owned one, and I have seen the KT's and the difference in quality is apparent.
Kel-Tec SU16 vs Saiga 223
- Thread starter Oldnoob
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nalioth
Member
What's that, Lassie?Dionysusigma said:
Magnolia State Armory is selling AR15 mag adapters for the Saiga? RenegadeBuck over at Gunco is, too?
"Easy-to-find magazines" are no longer an issue with the .223 Saiga.
1858remington
Member
I'd have to give it to Keltec.
I have a PLR-16 and a Sub2000.
Yes, some Keltec's do have problems, but what gun doesn't. Keltec's customer service is the best I have ever encountered in a gun company. I needed a part for my Subbie and they sent it with no cost to me.
A co-worker bought a used Keltec 380 that was beat, and keltec refirb'd it to like new for free.
Have a problem with the Saiga..... Your off to the gunsmith.
I have a PLR-16 and a Sub2000.
Yes, some Keltec's do have problems, but what gun doesn't. Keltec's customer service is the best I have ever encountered in a gun company. I needed a part for my Subbie and they sent it with no cost to me.
A co-worker bought a used Keltec 380 that was beat, and keltec refirb'd it to like new for free. Have a problem with the Saiga..... Your off to the gunsmith.
Ah, don't get em started about keltecs and wolf ammo...Some guy in a mud hut in Pakistan can take care of the problem and you can't manage it? Oh and by the way RRA has a good US company doing warranty work for them. I have only ever heard of anyone every needing it for the S12 shotguns. Those people seemed very happy with the results. In sum, your statement is factually incorrect.
Personally I'd rather not need to wait for parts and service, and refurbs. I'd simply prefer a rifle that is going to work and survive lots of hard use. I'd prefer a rifle that I can fix nearly any issue short of catastrophic failure my self. I'd prefer a rifle that will fire any in spec ammo of correct caliber.
I've owned/own kel tecs and shot even more and if I needed a weapon I could really rely on or planned to really put through the ringer I personally would not pick the kel tecs. A couple years back I nearly bought a PLR 16 to build into an SBR. After statements from a KT employee about the type of use it could handle without being damaged I decided to pass on that project.
Another point on price has been alluded to above. After a few cases of steel case ammo versus brass the saiga starts to get an even bigger financial edge. You buy the rifle once, mags rarely but you must buy ammo any time you want to shoot it, cost differences there can really start to add up.
1stmarine
Member
Problems with the Saiga? What a bent barrel? LOL!!!
christcorp
Member
I still own my saiga .223. I use to have an SU16. They aren't even close. The saiga .223 wins in every respect. Reliability???? For god's sake; the damn thing is an AK47 chambered in .223. The AK is about the most reliable gun on the planet. You can drag it through the mud, run over it with a truck, pick it up and still fire it. Not even your precious AR's can do that.
magazines???? As mentioned; that isn't even an issue. You can buy surefire mags til the cows come home. As mentioned, you can buy an adapter, and with about 30 minutes worth of work, not only allow the saiga to shoot it's original magazines, but also shoot all the AR15 magazines you can think of. I have a renegadebuck AR magazine adapter on my Saiga .223, and the thing is awesome. You can buy the gun for $400. (That's the HIGH end). You can spend $100 on the magazine adapter. After that; it's all whatever you want to spend for fun. It will shoot anything. It's more reliable than the Kel-tec. It's a no brainer. And FWIW: One of my primary concealed carry pistols is a kel-tec. I like the brand. You're just trying to compare an SU-16 with an AK and it's decades of proven reliability. Not going to happen. I also own a number of AR-15's and I STILL HAVE my Saiga .223. The thing is awesome. Indestructible. 85%+ of all parts are interchangeable with all other AK parts; (Which there are millions of parts if necessary); it shoots AR-15 magazines if necessary. And the gun is $150-$200 less than the SU-16. What the hell isn't there to like.
Here's a pic of my Saiga all decked out.
magazines???? As mentioned; that isn't even an issue. You can buy surefire mags til the cows come home. As mentioned, you can buy an adapter, and with about 30 minutes worth of work, not only allow the saiga to shoot it's original magazines, but also shoot all the AR15 magazines you can think of. I have a renegadebuck AR magazine adapter on my Saiga .223, and the thing is awesome. You can buy the gun for $400. (That's the HIGH end). You can spend $100 on the magazine adapter. After that; it's all whatever you want to spend for fun. It will shoot anything. It's more reliable than the Kel-tec. It's a no brainer. And FWIW: One of my primary concealed carry pistols is a kel-tec. I like the brand. You're just trying to compare an SU-16 with an AK and it's decades of proven reliability. Not going to happen. I also own a number of AR-15's and I STILL HAVE my Saiga .223. The thing is awesome. Indestructible. 85%+ of all parts are interchangeable with all other AK parts; (Which there are millions of parts if necessary); it shoots AR-15 magazines if necessary. And the gun is $150-$200 less than the SU-16. What the hell isn't there to like.
Here's a pic of my Saiga all decked out.
Apples and Oranges comparison IMO. If you're going to ask which and why, you need context because they're not the same animal and that context is going to vary from person to person.
An SU-16 is, in keltec's own words, a sport utility rifle. It's not a full on battle rifle. It's not as sturdy. You can't use it as a club and expect it to escape unscathed. It's not meant to be any of these things.
It does, however, fold down to roughly half its original length, weigh under five lbs, take AR mods and conceal 2 clips in the stock. For what it is, it's reasonably durable. Go find the youtube video of some guys chunking off a couple clips in rapid fire, bashing an iced over river open , bathing it for five seconds then return to rapid fire. Nutinfancy has extensive testing to prove its durability in spite of the concerns over plastic. His reviews are on youtube as well. I'd link them, but the tube is blocked here at work. I'd mention the built-in bipod forarm, but I hear it's of dubious value and often gets replaced by an after market forarm anyway.
Did we mention the kel-tec uses an AK piston system?
If you're looking for something very light, highly portable and resonably compatibility with other AR systems, the keltech says 'hi'. There are tradeoffs for those advantages, but as long as you're willing to accept them, it's proven (for a few years now) to be a good fire arm. Likewise, keltec is made in the USA and their customer service is reported to be top notch.
That said, everything said above about the Saiga is true as well, but then it's not built for the same mission either.
An SU-16 is, in keltec's own words, a sport utility rifle. It's not a full on battle rifle. It's not as sturdy. You can't use it as a club and expect it to escape unscathed. It's not meant to be any of these things.
It does, however, fold down to roughly half its original length, weigh under five lbs, take AR mods and conceal 2 clips in the stock. For what it is, it's reasonably durable. Go find the youtube video of some guys chunking off a couple clips in rapid fire, bashing an iced over river open , bathing it for five seconds then return to rapid fire. Nutinfancy has extensive testing to prove its durability in spite of the concerns over plastic. His reviews are on youtube as well. I'd link them, but the tube is blocked here at work. I'd mention the built-in bipod forarm, but I hear it's of dubious value and often gets replaced by an after market forarm anyway.
Did we mention the kel-tec uses an AK piston system?
If you're looking for something very light, highly portable and resonably compatibility with other AR systems, the keltech says 'hi'. There are tradeoffs for those advantages, but as long as you're willing to accept them, it's proven (for a few years now) to be a good fire arm. Likewise, keltec is made in the USA and their customer service is reported to be top notch.
That said, everything said above about the Saiga is true as well, but then it's not built for the same mission either.
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Cornhusker77
Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 640
I've got a Saiga .223 and just recently acquired a Kel Tec SU 16a, and I really like them both.
the Kel Tec is much lighter, takes AR mags, has the gas piston setup and folds up for storage.
The Saiga is a lot heavier but solid.
It's a Kalashnikov, simple, durable, proven, and you can fix it with a rock and a pair of pliers if needed.
They both have a place in my safe but I had to vote Saiga
the Kel Tec is much lighter, takes AR mags, has the gas piston setup and folds up for storage.
The Saiga is a lot heavier but solid.
It's a Kalashnikov, simple, durable, proven, and you can fix it with a rock and a pair of pliers if needed.
They both have a place in my safe but I had to vote Saiga
christcorp
Member
And if you're looking for a more solidly made weapon; that can ALSO accept AR magazines; has a 60+ year proven track record; built by the same company, on the same assembly line, as the mother company that builds the military AK-47; and for $200 less than the SU-16; get the Saiga .223.
If weight, space and portability aren't issues, no reason why you can't saiga. Even if they are, the price point can help offset them if you're willing. Just stating this really isn't the "X is better Y" debate it's turning into. A Saiga is fine, too. I don't think you can go wrong with either... Depending on your priorities.
sansone
Member
keltec.. made in USA and great cust service
1stmarine
Member
Both are great systems. I own serveral in both versions. do not compare apples with oranges. It is not worth the time.
1stmarine
Member
Girodin,
Ok I hear you so lets be more specific. I have both with "many miles" under the hood and these are the are pros and cons to each:
Keltec Pros:
Light weight. Polymer is extremely hardy and will not rust or bend. receiver with integrated rail. AR bolt locking system. The piston is extremely reliable with all sort of loads. Cycles very well with all ammo including Russian junk ammo. Brass is ejected in consistent pattern and it is in good health if you reload. Holds bolt open after last round is fired. Easy to clean maintain and assemble disassemble. Chrome lined. Uses AR GI magazines out the box, plentiful and many reliable models. The folding stock, Mags in the Stock, grip/bi-pod features are unique (great for a ranch rifle). C and CA model comes threaded in the muzzle. Very accurate withing MOA, just like a good AR. It can be maintained with similar AR maintainable techniques including replacing the barrel. Affordable. Made in the USA. It is legal in some communist states.
Keltec Cons:
Keltec doesn't pay too much attention to the package and finishing. Box is totally useless and might come with some scuffs under the trigger from cutting the polymer from the mold but nothing major that will affect function.
Might be too light for some, again depends on purpose. Might be ugly for some. Not important to me. Since it uses the same bolt face as the AR but it is not actually the same Bolt carrier or bolt or pin we cannot use AR parts for replacement other than the extractor but I have been told that keltec will ship whatever you need. In my opinion every system should include at least a spare firing pin, an extractor and a few springs even if they had to pay a few dollars more. Mag well might not drop free mags so use it a lot and will open up. Also pick up the ones that work better for that purpose if speed reloading is needed. Anyway this happens with other systems.
Saiga .223 pros:
It is an AK. Super reliable!. You have the reliability of an AR with a round that shoots flatter and normally more accurate than the typical AK-47 round (not the AK-74). Easy to disassemble, clean and assemble (A cave man could do it). Perfect weight for a carbine for many uses. Not too heavy not too light. Chrome lined. Made in Russia in the Izmasat plant that are the original inventors and parent plant of the AK. Not some cheap Romanian parts kit from some junk yard over there that some are trying to sell here.
Original hand guard is nice. Factory magazines are strong and reliable, just like many old and modern AK, an important factor in reliability.
Saiga .223 cons:
It is an AK. Aks are slightly less accurate due to the Bolt carrier being slightly off center but not really that much or anyohow something that it is significantly relevant in a MBR role. Specially in this round the rattling of the barrels is reduced due to the higher density of the barrel (Smaller caliber) so it is more accurate than many standard AK-47s. I have a Saiga .308 16" that does .5 to .7 MOA all day so it is not the rifle as a whole but that specific model/barrel/round combination. No bolt hold open after last round fired. It cycles well then it chews and spits the brass (just like a Sig) so if you reload it will damage many cases. This can be resolved with a buffer by the dust cover but it is a custom job. Brass ejection pattern is good and strong though.
The trigger has some slap and this is related to the fact that these systems are "sporterized" in some sort of odd transformation form their natural AK form to this ugly stock hunting role so they can be imported here by our recent communist laws. So trigger upgrade (ie: Tapco G2 single hook) is more than desirable and with it goes dancing the whole compliance parts tango whether you need it or not. The stock magazines are great but are not plentiful. 3rd party magazines are also nice but the preban option does not exist so the communist states (ie: NY) can enjoy a higher capacity
You need to find a good picatiny rail since it doesn't come with that.
Not sure where you can get an extractor, firing pin or even a barrel or that the barrel could be replaced w/o the help of an experienced AK gunsmith. It might be worth buying several saigas now. That's what I did. It is not legal converted in some communist states (ie: NJ)
Once a conversion is completed you most likely have some of the best AKs you can buy (Again Russian made) in a popular round in the Western block that will give much enjoyment.
See some pictures of my Keltecs and saiga conversions...
Saiga .308 16" converted and accurized. including the .308, why not?...
Before and after....
Also read this thread that I created for a fellow member and friend that wanted to learn about the Keltec since it is legal in Communist NJ and not many things are legal there...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6978331#post6978331
I hope this helps someone.
Shoot often. Be safe and don't ever forget our veterans.
Cheers,
E.
Ok I hear you so lets be more specific. I have both with "many miles" under the hood and these are the are pros and cons to each:
Keltec Pros:
Light weight. Polymer is extremely hardy and will not rust or bend. receiver with integrated rail. AR bolt locking system. The piston is extremely reliable with all sort of loads. Cycles very well with all ammo including Russian junk ammo. Brass is ejected in consistent pattern and it is in good health if you reload. Holds bolt open after last round is fired. Easy to clean maintain and assemble disassemble. Chrome lined. Uses AR GI magazines out the box, plentiful and many reliable models. The folding stock, Mags in the Stock, grip/bi-pod features are unique (great for a ranch rifle). C and CA model comes threaded in the muzzle. Very accurate withing MOA, just like a good AR. It can be maintained with similar AR maintainable techniques including replacing the barrel. Affordable. Made in the USA. It is legal in some communist states.
Keltec Cons:
Keltec doesn't pay too much attention to the package and finishing. Box is totally useless and might come with some scuffs under the trigger from cutting the polymer from the mold but nothing major that will affect function.
Might be too light for some, again depends on purpose. Might be ugly for some. Not important to me. Since it uses the same bolt face as the AR but it is not actually the same Bolt carrier or bolt or pin we cannot use AR parts for replacement other than the extractor but I have been told that keltec will ship whatever you need. In my opinion every system should include at least a spare firing pin, an extractor and a few springs even if they had to pay a few dollars more. Mag well might not drop free mags so use it a lot and will open up. Also pick up the ones that work better for that purpose if speed reloading is needed. Anyway this happens with other systems.
Saiga .223 pros:
It is an AK. Super reliable!. You have the reliability of an AR with a round that shoots flatter and normally more accurate than the typical AK-47 round (not the AK-74). Easy to disassemble, clean and assemble (A cave man could do it). Perfect weight for a carbine for many uses. Not too heavy not too light. Chrome lined. Made in Russia in the Izmasat plant that are the original inventors and parent plant of the AK. Not some cheap Romanian parts kit from some junk yard over there that some are trying to sell here.
Original hand guard is nice. Factory magazines are strong and reliable, just like many old and modern AK, an important factor in reliability.
Saiga .223 cons:
It is an AK. Aks are slightly less accurate due to the Bolt carrier being slightly off center but not really that much or anyohow something that it is significantly relevant in a MBR role. Specially in this round the rattling of the barrels is reduced due to the higher density of the barrel (Smaller caliber) so it is more accurate than many standard AK-47s. I have a Saiga .308 16" that does .5 to .7 MOA all day so it is not the rifle as a whole but that specific model/barrel/round combination. No bolt hold open after last round fired. It cycles well then it chews and spits the brass (just like a Sig) so if you reload it will damage many cases. This can be resolved with a buffer by the dust cover but it is a custom job. Brass ejection pattern is good and strong though.
The trigger has some slap and this is related to the fact that these systems are "sporterized" in some sort of odd transformation form their natural AK form to this ugly stock hunting role so they can be imported here by our recent communist laws. So trigger upgrade (ie: Tapco G2 single hook) is more than desirable and with it goes dancing the whole compliance parts tango whether you need it or not. The stock magazines are great but are not plentiful. 3rd party magazines are also nice but the preban option does not exist so the communist states (ie: NY) can enjoy a higher capacity
You need to find a good picatiny rail since it doesn't come with that.
Not sure where you can get an extractor, firing pin or even a barrel or that the barrel could be replaced w/o the help of an experienced AK gunsmith. It might be worth buying several saigas now. That's what I did. It is not legal converted in some communist states (ie: NJ)
Once a conversion is completed you most likely have some of the best AKs you can buy (Again Russian made) in a popular round in the Western block that will give much enjoyment.
See some pictures of my Keltecs and saiga conversions...
Saiga .308 16" converted and accurized. including the .308, why not?...
Before and after....
Also read this thread that I created for a fellow member and friend that wanted to learn about the Keltec since it is legal in Communist NJ and not many things are legal there...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6978331#post6978331
I hope this helps someone.
Shoot often. Be safe and don't ever forget our veterans.
Cheers,
E.
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1stmarine
Member
christcorp,
When you converted yours did you update the trigger? If so why you didn't move it where it belongs in an AK.
I am not familiar with those magazine conversion kits so it looks very interesting.
Could you provide more info about the conversion. All AK experts say one big role in the reliability are the AK beefed up magazine designs so are we loosing some of this or you find them reliable? has this been tested in real drills and comprehensive test scenarios?
Any info would be helpful.
Thanks.
When you converted yours did you update the trigger? If so why you didn't move it where it belongs in an AK.
I am not familiar with those magazine conversion kits so it looks very interesting.
Could you provide more info about the conversion. All AK experts say one big role in the reliability are the AK beefed up magazine designs so are we loosing some of this or you find them reliable? has this been tested in real drills and comprehensive test scenarios?
Any info would be helpful.
Thanks.
1stmarine
Member
Girodin,
Yes Izhmash, sorry for the spelling LOL!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3zV1Y-ijiU
I posted my groups is this .308 semiauto accuracy post. I have many rifles and find these .308 saigas surprisingly and graciously extremely accurate so I bought 3 of them. It groups same or better than my M1A SOCOM. I keep 1 unfired at the moment. I use DAG 147/150gr NATO round. surplus. It loves the military loads. For fiddling with loads I have other systems.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563863
Let me put it this way. If I was to be deployed again and I could choose my system from all I have, I will probably take my Saiga .308 converted with me.
A) It is an AK. B) It is a .308! and C) it is very accurate. I have been fired at before so I can tell you some of the advantages in CQB, urban and open field but this is a no brainer really.
Let me know if you have more questions and I will be happy to assist.
Cheers,
E.
Yes Izhmash, sorry for the spelling LOL!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3zV1Y-ijiU
I posted my groups is this .308 semiauto accuracy post. I have many rifles and find these .308 saigas surprisingly and graciously extremely accurate so I bought 3 of them. It groups same or better than my M1A SOCOM. I keep 1 unfired at the moment. I use DAG 147/150gr NATO round. surplus. It loves the military loads. For fiddling with loads I have other systems.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563863
Let me put it this way. If I was to be deployed again and I could choose my system from all I have, I will probably take my Saiga .308 converted with me.
A) It is an AK. B) It is a .308! and C) it is very accurate. I have been fired at before so I can tell you some of the advantages in CQB, urban and open field but this is a no brainer really.
Let me know if you have more questions and I will be happy to assist.
Cheers,
E.
nalioth
Member
You don't "loose" anything.1stmarine said:
The mag adapters slot in and out just like a regular AK magazine.
Get tired of AR15 mags? Just pull the adapter and get back to the Circle 10s.
1stmarine
Member
Could you be more specific about you do not loose anything?
Are the adapter reliable or not? Have they been well tested?
I am asking to learn not to criticize anything. I find this to be a great idea.
Cheers,
E.
Are the adapter reliable or not? Have they been well tested?
I am asking to learn not to criticize anything. I find this to be a great idea.
Cheers,
E.
nalioth
Member
Your post content was concerned with the loss of AK mag reliability.1stmarine said:
With the mag adapter, you do not lose the ability to use AK mags, as the adapter isn't permanent.
The mag adapters lock in and remove just like an AK magazine (they're not permanent).
christcorp
Member
I believe the AR magazine adapter is quite reliable. There are 2 different ones; "Both similar in operation". The one I use is by a person known as "renegadebuck". If you search his name, even in google, you'll find lots of information and how to contact him. Either adapter requires some minor work to the gun. It's a little grinding or milling (Depending on how you want to do it); in order to allow the AR15 magazines to fit a little deeper into the rifle. Other than that, there is nothing drastically changed. And as mentioned by nalioth; the adapter snaps in just like it was a magazine. 2 seconds in; or 2 seconds to take out and continue with the original saiga magazines or circle 10's and bullet guide however you have it now.
Why didn't I move the trigger forward? "A lot of people ask me that". I've owned way to many AK's in my life. And I've sold way too many AK's. The main reason I never kept AK's after a while, is because I don't like the way they they feel when I hold them. Maybe I'm too big of a guy. But my 2 hands felt "Too Close" together. I happen to be in a gun shop that had a saiga .223, and I decided to feel it out. Totally expecting it to feel like every other AK; except for the standard imported stock instead of a pistol grip. But for some reason, it felt STRANGELY PLEASANT. After looking at it closely, I noticed that the trigger assembly was mounted further back. (To work with the monty carlo type sporter stock. But the trigger assembly back that extra couple inches made all the difference in the world "FOR ME". The ONLY, let me repeat "ONLY" reason I decided to take "Another Chance" on an AK format rifle was because of the trigger assembly being further back. They also had a 7.62x39 version also, but the .223 was a bonus. If they didn't have a .223 available, I probably would have bought the 7.62x39. And AK with the trigger assembly further apart. Just what I wanted/needed. For me, it's better balance and ergonomics.
Don't get me wrong, I also have a "FEW" AR's and many other guns. But I love the reliability of an AK. They are fun. They "FEEL" like a gun when you shoot them. For what they are, they are definitely accurate. "They were designed to kill people; not for competitions". I can consistently hit a paper plate at 100 yards with open sights or non-magnification red-dot scopes. That's all I'm looking for. Now that I have it the way I like it, and I have a T-handle on the front forearm grip, I might consider doing the trigger job on it. Because I can simply MOVE UP the T-handle on the front of the rifle and keep the "Spread" that I like. But originally, the rifle has the traditional forehand grip, and I could only slide my forward hand so far. But if I do change out the trigger, it will only be for easier resell capability. That's assuming I would ever sell it.
"SIDE NOTE": Maybe because I am a LEFTY, and having the brass wizzzz by in front of my eyes, was a subconscious reason I didn't like my hands so close, and thus my face. With the trigger assembly further back, it forces my head/face back a little. I am only "Guessing" here. Point is, I like having the trigger assembly further back. That has been the only real complaint I've had with ALL my AK's I've ever owned. I never really knew how much MORE I liked AK's, until I got the Saiga and the trigger was further back. Definitely not for all people, but for me, I like it this way.
Why didn't I move the trigger forward? "A lot of people ask me that". I've owned way to many AK's in my life. And I've sold way too many AK's. The main reason I never kept AK's after a while, is because I don't like the way they they feel when I hold them. Maybe I'm too big of a guy. But my 2 hands felt "Too Close" together. I happen to be in a gun shop that had a saiga .223, and I decided to feel it out. Totally expecting it to feel like every other AK; except for the standard imported stock instead of a pistol grip. But for some reason, it felt STRANGELY PLEASANT. After looking at it closely, I noticed that the trigger assembly was mounted further back. (To work with the monty carlo type sporter stock. But the trigger assembly back that extra couple inches made all the difference in the world "FOR ME". The ONLY, let me repeat "ONLY" reason I decided to take "Another Chance" on an AK format rifle was because of the trigger assembly being further back. They also had a 7.62x39 version also, but the .223 was a bonus. If they didn't have a .223 available, I probably would have bought the 7.62x39. And AK with the trigger assembly further apart. Just what I wanted/needed. For me, it's better balance and ergonomics.
Don't get me wrong, I also have a "FEW" AR's and many other guns. But I love the reliability of an AK. They are fun. They "FEEL" like a gun when you shoot them. For what they are, they are definitely accurate. "They were designed to kill people; not for competitions". I can consistently hit a paper plate at 100 yards with open sights or non-magnification red-dot scopes. That's all I'm looking for. Now that I have it the way I like it, and I have a T-handle on the front forearm grip, I might consider doing the trigger job on it. Because I can simply MOVE UP the T-handle on the front of the rifle and keep the "Spread" that I like. But originally, the rifle has the traditional forehand grip, and I could only slide my forward hand so far. But if I do change out the trigger, it will only be for easier resell capability. That's assuming I would ever sell it.
"SIDE NOTE": Maybe because I am a LEFTY, and having the brass wizzzz by in front of my eyes, was a subconscious reason I didn't like my hands so close, and thus my face. With the trigger assembly further back, it forces my head/face back a little. I am only "Guessing" here. Point is, I like having the trigger assembly further back. That has been the only real complaint I've had with ALL my AK's I've ever owned. I never really knew how much MORE I liked AK's, until I got the Saiga and the trigger was further back. Definitely not for all people, but for me, I like it this way.
1stmarine
Member
christcorp,
First of all many thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions.
Nobody said there is anything wrong with AKs. I have them in all calibers.
What you are explaining makes sense you kept the trigger where it works for you. Thanks for explaining the mag conversion. I love the fact that snaps on and off but I was asking about reliability with the AR conversion.
The reason is very simple, let me explain. Many folks already have AR magazines preban but you cannot find any preban for factory 223 saigas, can you? So for the carbine to be legal it has to be able to take the original magazine and as a bonus the AR gi in hi capacity that folks can legaly own in preban form. But what we do not want is to tell people to come out with those magazines only, and one day in fact you need them in an emergency and they do not reliably function. I am not talking about range reliability but factory testing, drill testing and so forth.
I am not criticizing any choices I am just trying to get more information in a cordial and cooperative way.
Many thanks for you all your answers.
Cheees,
E.
First of all many thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions.
Nobody said there is anything wrong with AKs. I have them in all calibers.
What you are explaining makes sense you kept the trigger where it works for you. Thanks for explaining the mag conversion. I love the fact that snaps on and off but I was asking about reliability with the AR conversion.
The reason is very simple, let me explain. Many folks already have AR magazines preban but you cannot find any preban for factory 223 saigas, can you? So for the carbine to be legal it has to be able to take the original magazine and as a bonus the AR gi in hi capacity that folks can legaly own in preban form. But what we do not want is to tell people to come out with those magazines only, and one day in fact you need them in an emergency and they do not reliably function. I am not talking about range reliability but factory testing, drill testing and so forth.
I am not criticizing any choices I am just trying to get more information in a cordial and cooperative way.
Many thanks for you all your answers.
Cheees,
E.
nalioth
Member
When the adapters have been installed correctly (trunnion modded to accept AR15 mag), there have been 0 reports of reliability issues (so long as the magazine is functional).1stmarine said:
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