Knight Arms Co PDW (Personal Defense Weapon)?

[Bill_Rights]

At one time, this

was an experimental military CQB weapon. Is it in production? Does any military use it? Can we buy a civilian (semi-auto-only) version?

I saw it featured on Future Weapons TV show. Could not find the video of it, as you sometimes can for that show, but here is one (I couldn't get any audio) which has some of the same footage.

Here are some details:
Market niche: Replace pistol-round submachine guns with compact gun giving rifle-round performance
Mfgr web page: Knight PDW
Misc. specs:
- Knight Armament Co
- PDW, Personal Defense Weapon
- 6 x 35mm, 65 grain proprietary round, 2425 fps, 848 ft-lbs (10" barrell)
- 10" barrell and 8" barrell
- 17.5" length with stock folded (8" barrell)
- ~4.5 lbs
- recoil is 50% less than a standard M4 carbine
- ambidextrous controls
- highly lethal up to 300 meters

Another question:
This apparently uses unheard-of proprietary ammo (sheesh!). How does this 6x35 mm round compare to 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel (or your similar favorite)?

 

[maskedman504]

This apparently uses unheard-of proprietary ammo (sheesh!). How does this 6x35 mm round compare to 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel (or your similar favorite)?

It doesn't.

It compares more closely to the 5.7x28 from the FN Five Seven imho.

5.7x28
32 gr (2.1 g) SS190 AP FMJ
716 m/s (2,350 ft/s) 538 J (397 ft·lbf)

6.5x57.5 (Grendel)
120 gr (7.8 g) Norma FMJBT
2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) 1,942 ft·lbf (2,633 J)

6.8 SPC
115 gr (7.5 g) (7.45g)
2,625 ft/s (800 m/s) 1,759 ft·lbf (2,385 J)

I am sure someone will come in and want to and debate the ballistic information I have ppostedl my point is the proprietary cartridge fired by the KA PDW is not a intermediate size rifle round.

 

[jerkface11]

Magpuls idea of a PDW looks way more interesting. http://www.arcimboldeb.com/img/eventi/armi4/38.jpg
It shoots 5.56 and uses AR magazines.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Is it in production? Does any military use it? Can we buy a civilian (semi-auto-only) version?

Don't think it ever made it past prototype stage, don't think anyone ever adopted it, and don't think a civilian only version exists.

The proprietary ammunition angle is a deal breaker for most potential customers, I think. Much cheaper to use standard 5.56mm or trying to tweak 5.56mm performance (Mk 262 etc etc) than take on the logistical burden of a whole new caliber for just a specialized portion of your weapons inventory.

I am sure someone will come in and want to and debate the ballistic information I have ppostedl my point is the proprietary cartridge fired by the KA PDW is not a intermediate size rifle round.

I agree, though it's worth noting that the numbers they're claiming for the round are from a 10" barrel.

 

[dscottw88]

It looks neat, but again, creating a new round is a deal breaker for me as well. I'd be far more interested in a 5.56, or even a 9mm version (which I hear they tinkered with) if i were gonna pick one up.

 

[Justin]

Keep yer Masada. I want MagPul to release that PDW thing. The size of a P90, shoots .223 and runs AR magazines would be just awesome. (and loud!)

 

[taliv]

if you're looking for more info, KAC reps started a pretty involved discussion on that PDW over at m4carbine.net a couple months ago.

 

[armoredman]

I want that MagPul PDW, if it can make legal length and still look like that!

 

[crushbup]

Is it in production? Does any military use it? Can we buy a civilian (semi-auto-only) version?

The answer to all three is, "not yet." They have prototypes, chances are they'll convince someone to use them, and KAC produces a lot of things for the civilian market, so I don't see any of those "not yets" as being too difficult to change to a "yes."

 

[gvnwst]

The cartridge, i have heard, it pretty much a exact copy of the 6mm Whisper froom J.D. Jones (IIRC), a necked up .221 rem fireball.

magpul's PDW is a MUCH better, and more original design. I want to see it come out, i don't care about the KAC.

 

[Bill_Rights]

Justin and all,

You mention

I want MagPul to release that PDW thing. The size of a P90, shoots .223 and runs AR magazines would be just awesome. (and loud!)

which reminded me that one point the Knight interviewer made about their new round is that powder burn is complete before the bullet exits the muzzle, even in the 8" barrel length. He said this reduces noise and muzzle flash, both important for operator concentration inside buildings and confined spaces. I guess this entails some engineered powder burn, but I wouldn't know.

Also mentioned 50% reduction in recoil effect (for ex., muzzle climb in full auto) versus M4 firing .223. This might be all mechanics of the action, however, not related to powder burn.

 

[PPGMD]

It's shelved unless a government or military customer wants to pick it up.

 

[taliv]

magpul's PDW is a MUCH better, and more original design.

how many years have we been waiting for magpul to release a plastic gun?

given the SCAR's debut issues from a company with a long and distinguished history of producing excellent firearms for many militaries... and the fact that KAC also has couple decades under their belt...

don't you think it's just a WEE bit early to be making relative value judgments?

for the love of God, there have been tens of millions of ARs and AKs in combat for over half a century and some people STILL can't tell which design is better.

seriously, on what basis are you claiming one design is better than the other?

 

[Janos Dracwlya]

Magpuls idea of a PDW looks way more interesting. http://www.arcimboldeb.com/img/eventi/armi4/38.jpg
It shoots 5.56 and uses AR magazines.

Dang, that is pure awesome. I'll take one.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

That gun looks awesome. Not in love with the idea of an obscure caliber, but everything else looks great!

 

[jerkface11]

which reminded me that one point the Knight interviewer made about their new round is that powder burn is complete before the bullet exits the muzzle, even in the 8" barrel length

Um that would be true with ANY reasonable rifle cartridge. By that I mean anything less than .50 bmg. Probably even that with most loads.

 

[Bill_Rights]

Rocky, Are you referring to the MagPul a bunch of others are arguing about or the KAC PDW the OP introduced?

On the point of a compact gun shooting the .223/5.56mm round, whether its true or not, Knight claims that it would be loud, flashy and not achieve the expected muzzle velocity in an 8" barrel. Doesn't matter who makes the gun.

At minimum, a short-barrel .223/5.56mm round would have to have a way different powder burn time-profile than the standard M16/AR15 round. So the benefit of interchangabilty of ammo goes away in any short-barrel case. Except that you could use standard M16/AR15 round, in a pinch, if you were willing to accept the degradation of the performance specs. The system would still shoot. In time of danger, shoot = good, no shoot = bad.

Maybe Knight could have simply produced a special loading of the .223 cartridge. Their interview said their ballistics studies indicated that they needed the slightly heavier and larger diameter bullet to achieve their goals. I myself can't judge.

 

[Gelgoog]

I thought I read somewhere that KAC was only interested in governmental contracts and if it was not picked up by one that it would drop the rifle, saying to queries of civilian sales that " it was not interested in civilian market".

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I was referring to the KAC, but the Magpul one looks good as well.

Magpul has some great ideas. The stuff that actually hits the market is always really good. Who knows what will happen with the ACR or their PDW... As of right now, I am not holding my breathe...

 

[gvnwst]

seriously, on what basis are you claiming one design is better than the other?

Okay, i need to rephrase that, it is not nessicarly a better design, but it is a more advanced design, and more original. The KAC is (very simply) a re-sized AR, rather than everything new.