Law officers Carry Bill

[GAMALOT]

EL, Great point and I wish I could site some stats but all my training was done while in the correction dept.
I can only speak from this experience and I must admit, the training was never enough and absolutely important. We must recognize that many employees took the job for the job and pay check and had no knowledge about guns. Because of the Peace Officer Status, all employees had to be proficient with the dept weapons.
I found it rather simple to teach a person who had zero experience with guns and rather difficult to teach those who thought they already knew it all.
I also found the majority of the un safe students were those who either owned guns or had been taught to shoot elsewhere.
This is all just my experience of 27 years Weapons training in the LEO theater.
Most of the guys and gals who are here on the HR are gun savy to varrying degrees and would never understand what I faced daily. I have been down range when a cowboy who "didn't know the AR 15 was laoded" sprayed hot lead all over the place. He was a big gun owner and the great white hunter and as unsafe as they come. We had an officer shoot his young son while he slept in his room. Another of the big hunters who was cleaning his guns and one had a round chambered, shot the boy thru the wall and in the leg.
HE had been trained by his Dad and was quite unreseptive during all his weapons training wanting only to shoot his score and get a free day at the range away from the jail.
I do not consider training to be a restriction of any kind even if it is mandatory. Here in NY, we already have tons of restrictions we must overcome to get a permit and purchase a hand gun. Many states have similar requirements so I am not advocating anything other then that we as gun owners should demand our fellow gun owners to learn the safe handeling and the laws so we can stay under the radar. No one ever mentions the many hours of safe target shooting and hunting we all enjoy but the minute one of us makes a stupid mistake it is all over the evening news and just serves as ammunition for the Anti gunners. I don't appreciate my rights comming under attack by the left because of these stupid mistakes. We all know to treat every gun as if it is loaded however we all need to be reminded every now and again.

 

[OpenRoad]

And at what distance did you shoot these 5 rounds, and under what conditions??

Ten yards offhand. Saw your remark and figured you must be a cop. Yup..

 

[El Tejon]

Gam, amen about the necessity of training. I saw the same things when I was a LEO. In addition, I wholeheartedly agree that the most effective way to change is to affect the culture from inside, not outside. Internal controls are always more effective than external commands.

 

[GAMALOT]

What we all have to keep in mind about the question of CCW nation wide is that the restrictions already exist. The vast majority of us simply cannot carry outside of their resident state.
Weather or not Cops can is not at issue so please don't blame one groups Rights being restored for the lack of anothers.
Since the restrictions already exist, why not try to figure out how to present the best argument to get them lifted for us all.
Those of you who are angry that cops got it and you did not or think cops don't deserve it are just fighting against yourselves.
The only way to ever get these restrictions lifted for us all is to show where we all are as well or better trained then the LEOs. Not at all impossible!
The only reason the LEOs where able to get the restrictions lifted is because they got together and showed where they were trained and could be an asset.
So what are you going to do besides belly ache about it. Remember, the right is already restricted! I am just tossing out some ideas of ways I think we might have a chance on getting them lifted.
Not to rub this in but I am a retired LEO so all I have to do is get myself requalified annualy and I am good to go. I am just trying to agree with the total lifting of the restrictions for us all and discuss some options for getting it done.
Don't think for one minute that HR 218 did not fight a hard won battle without great resistance. You should all support this and get to work on the next step.

 

[RealGun]

The only way to ever get these restrictions lifted for us all is to show where we all are as well or better trained then the LEOs. Not at all impossible! -GAMALOT

Grrrr! HR218 is unconstitutional. Now you want me to go hat in hand, mother may I, volunteering that the 2A only applies if I am granted the privilege as a suitably trained gun owner, that training judgment left to regulatory discretion.

You know, the last thing I want to read here is a condescending lecture from a cop. I don't engage in LEO bashing threads, but I can see why some people get edgy about the subject. I will grant you that you mean well, but this approach of being here to save us all is not going to fly.

 

[El Tejon]

Real, I believe Gam is speaking politically. I disagree with him as a matter of politics.

What is need politically is for gun owners to beat the drum, write letters, and wake up the NRA from their hunting season slumber. We won the election for the Republicans, time to cash in some "political capital" (since that phrase seems to be all the rage in D.C. recently).

 

[Risasi]

No Tejon,

What you need is every gun owner to strap on his hogleg and excercise his second amendment rights. And if everyone did it all on the same day who is to stop them? I'm not saying march or anything like that. Just wear your gun going about your normal activities. Let's run some numbers. We have about 1,200 officers in our city. WIth a metro population of 750,000, who I am guessing has roughly 150,000 adult males. Conservative Red State. 75% own guns, and you get maybe 10% of them to do it. You've got what 10,000 people walking around packing. Do it open. Not even the Guard could respond to this. Heck half the guys packing are probably in the Guard. Okay, my math is fuzzy, but I hope you get my point.

Don't forget the Bill of Rights does not grant us our rights. It merely identifies the rights of EVERY MAN. Not just Americans. All a government can do is SUPRESS our rights. Not take them away. I have no problem with even a mexican carrying a defensive weapon on him in our country. But I sure as heck would love to see every adult male between the ages of 17-45 to carry. An armed society is truly a polite society. Okay, maybe we weed each other out for the first couple years.

 

[flatrock]

In other words, if you are currently a LEO and have your department ID with you, you can carry anywhere in any state so long as that state, or someone authorized by that state, has not said otherwise.

If you're retired, and have either a retiree dept. ID and annual qualification certificate, or if you've got an annual qual. cert. with your picture on it, the same rules as above apply.

Unfortunately there are always police chiefs that are intent on not following the intent of the law.

There are a number of places where it's been made department policy that an officer may not use their department ID to carry in other states.

One of our local police departments is refusing to issue any form of ID to retierees who qualify under this law. Their claim is that they are concerned about liability if a retired officer is involved in a shooting.

If it were a state law, at least we have a state AG who doesn't let away with playing such games, however it's not his job to uphold federal law, so the officers are out of luck unless they want to sue and try their chances in federal court.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

One of our local police departments is refusing to issue any form of ID to retierees who qualify under this law. Their claim is that they are concerned about liability if a retired officer is involved in a shooting.

The way I read the law, if the retired cop still has his old photo ID, he can simply take the state test at his own expense, satisfying the requirement below:

`(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

`(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer; (that's the old ID) and

`(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm. (and that's the state qual.)