Lee- Factory crimp die

[Jeff H]

For Rifle

So, I recently picked up some Lee dies for 300 Blackout and the only set they made included a FCD. Never used one before in any of the rifle rounds I reloaded and never had any issues with bullet setback either. I'm inclined to not bother with this die but I thought I would pose the question to the group for comment. Does this cartridge benefit from using the FCD?

Just making 147 grain plinkers for the moment but I'll be making 150 grain SMK rounds later this winter.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Many reloaders including myself feel crimping rifle ammo is not necessary unless it's meant for a levergun. I tend to agree. That said, for rifles if you are going to use a crimp I like the collect die that Lee makes. It does apply a factory-like crimp. Only you can decide if your ammo is better with or without a crimp applied.

 

[konertjm]

Well, never mind, The rifle FCD serves a single function, factory style crimp.
All of my experience is with the Pistol FCD's, which serves 2 functions, crimp, and case uniformity.

Lee Rifle FCD

 

[LiveLife]

Keep in mind that FCD for semi auto pistol is different than FCD for rifle cases which also differs from revolver FCD. Main difference is the carbide sizer ring at the mouth of FCD for semi auto pistol that can post size out of round/spec finished rounds to SAAMI specs.

Not sure if OP is using bolt or auto loading rifle but while I have FCD for .223/.300 BLK/.308, I do not need to use them for my auto loading rifles. You can always try both and see which rounds produce smaller shot groups.

 

[Orcon]

I don't use the crimp die on anything but I mostly shoot bolt guns an neck tension is suffiecient to keep the COAL from shifting under recoil. I have a friend whose modified .308 dies don't give right amount of neck tension in his AR-10 so he applies a light to moderate crimp.

Are you shooting an AR platform?

 

[Jeff H]

Yes, this is an AR.

 

[Orcon]

Yes, this is an AR.

Load up a dummy round and measure the COAL. Load the dummy round into the mag and the mag into the rifle with the bolt locked open. Hit the bolt release and then extract, repeat a few times and measure the COAL. If your COAL has changed, you should probably apply a light crimp.

 

[Bart B.]

Sierra Bullets proved decades ago that crimping their bullets in place degraded accuracy a small amount 'cause it unbalanced bullets. They were able to get Lee to put disclaimers in their ads saying not to use their FCD on case necks holding Sierra's bullets. I think Speer Bullets was also involved in this dispute with Lee.

While Sierra bowed to customer demands for a cannelured 22 caliber 77-gr. HPMK bullet, those bullets crimped in cases shoot bigger test groups than without being crimped. So, Sierra tests them without crimps for quality control. They don't care if customers crimp them in case mouths and get less accuracy.

Nobody getting best accuracy with rifle bullets crimps them in place. Some may see an improvement with crimped in bullets, but their groups are not as tiny as with uncrimped bullets. That's cause some people cannot get their reloading tools selected and/or set up to make case necks tight enough on bullets so crimps aren't needed.

No commercial centerfire match ammo has crimped in bullets. Arsenals quit crimping in 30 caliber 172-gr. cannelured match bullets decades ago. They also quit putting in the cannelure in those bullets; that also let them shoot more accurate. Nobody getting best accuracy in rapid fire matches with rifles using hand loads crimps in bullets. They know how to get enough case neck grip to keep up to 190 grain 30 caliber bullets from shifting position in any direction from bolt cycling and recoil and get 1/2 to 2/3 MOA accuracy at 300 yards. Those that cannot comprehend or do this will claim otherwise.

 

[steve4102]

Look for forward creep of the bullet not setback.

Sierra proved a few years back that the violent action of a service rifle will cause the bullet to move forward.

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra’s range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra’s 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

Note that Sierra's test was with lighter 224 bullets, the heavy 30 Caliber bullet in your blackout will most likely move farther forward then the lighter bullets.

I have never seen any actual tests or documentation from Sierra claiming that crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die degrades accuracy, only comments from members here that it exists. So far, no proof.

Here is a test you can actually see with your own eyes and is not just another unsubstantiated opinion.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html


Note, accuracy was improved in all three rifle in all three cartridges.

Also note that many of the naysayers here that preach the evils of the LFCD, have never even seen one let alone tested one.

 

[jack44]

I use the Lee to crimp 44 and 45/70

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[mdi]

I have a Lee FCD for rifles in two cartridges, 30-06 and .223. I got the .223 about 20 years ago out of curiosity and very seldom used it. I got the 30-06 collet crimp (FCD) when I got my Garand, but have found I don't have setback/creep with the brass and bullets I use. If I were reloading for a levergun I would prolly use one. I have found it OK to use to straighten out case mouths, but as many mentioned above, I don't crimp my rifle ammo anymore.

As far ad an FCD for handguns, I got one out of curiosity , but found it ruined my carefully sized lead bullets. It now resided in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon...

 

[Jeff H]

Look for forward creep of the bullet not setback.

Sierra proved a few years back that the violent action of a service rifle will cause the bullet to move forward.

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra’s range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra’s 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

Note that Sierra's test was with lighter 224 bullets, the heavy 30 Caliber bullet in your blackout will most likely move farther forward then the lighter bullets.

I have never seen any actual tests or documentation from Sierra claiming that crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die degrades accuracy, only comments from members here that it exists. So far, no proof.

Here is a test you can actually see with your own eyes and is not just another unsubstantiated opinion.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html


Note, accuracy was improved in all three rifle in all three cartridges.

Also note that many of the naysayers here that preach the evils of the LFCD, have never even seen one let alone tested one.

A good read for sure. Thanks for the links.

My 147 grainers are twice as heavy as the 77SMKs I run in 556, and 3 times heaver than 55gr plinking loads. Since I'm loading in a turret, it really isn't that much more effort to put a light crimp on them. Food for thought.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Some of my Blackout ammo is loaded with coated cast lead to bullets. I have to bell the case mouth a little to avoid shaving the bullet as I seat it. I bought a Lee FCD to remove the bell.


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[Curator]

I apply the Lee factory crimp to ammo loaded for my semi-auto rifles. I have seen definite increase in accuracy with my 5.56X45 ARs when bullets are crimped correctly. Of course, you can over do it. Over-crimping is worse than no crimp at all.

 

[Bart B.]

Does anyone who crimps center fire rifle ammo get all test groups under half an inch at 100 yards?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Does anyone who crimps center fire rifle ammo get all test groups under half an inch at 100 yards?

That would be good shooting no matter what and certainly not with a semi-auto rifle unless it's set up for match accuracy.

 

[morcey2]

Does anyone who crimps center fire rifle ammo get all test groups under half an inch at 100 yards?

Nope, but I have two rifles that crimping with an FCD reduces the groups from approx 3" to just over 1" in one case and over 2" to less than 1" in the other.

One is a Spanish M44 mauser in 8x57 with a very long throat and "generous" chamber. The other is a Mexican 1910 small-ring 98 in 7x57 that also has a very long throat. Both are scoped and the changes are very consistent.

I have several other guns that it doesn't seem to have any affect on either on accuracy, so I don't crimp for those so the brass isn't worked as much. Other than that, I crimp 30-30 and 223 reloads with 55 gr FMJBT.

Matt

 

[thomas15]

General D. H. Hill in 1862 at Malvern Hill was heard saying "Confederate infantry using the LCT and Federal artillery using the FCD, side by side on the same field need fear no foe on earth.”

 

[steve4102]

Does anyone who crimps center fire rifle ammo get all test groups under half an inch at 100 yards?

Not all, but enough to know it works.

None of my rifles are capable of 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards "All" the time, and neither am I, especially if I do not crimp.

Browning 300WSM BAR/BOSS, 180gr Nosler Partititon 100 yards.
Crimped with the Lee Factory Crimp die.
Three rounds



This is the same rifle at 100 yards. I loaded up a new batch just before deer season and wanted to make sure they were still GTG. only two rounds here.



As this is about an AR-15 in 300 Blackout.

100gr Barnes TAC-TX 100 yards Crimped with LFCD.

This was the first time to the range with this rifle, and the only powder tested was 296. More testing coming, I'm sure these will tighten up a little.

 

[joneb]

I use the Lee collet crimp die for 7.62x39 and 30-30 Win. it works very well.
I have the Lee collet crimp for .357 mag. for plated bullets, and will soon get one for .44 spl/mag. I will not use a Lee die that post sizes the round.

 

[shooter1]

The only rifle ammo I load these days is the 5.56. Using the Lee FCD definitely tightened up my groups in my ARs. I also use them on 9/40/45, without measurable loss of accuracy for my action pistol loads.
str1

 

[Walkalong]

My 300 BLK loads are not accuracy oriented. Sure, I work up a load to get decent groups, but that isn't the main goal and if a crimp makes it shoot 1 1/4" instead of 1" at 100 yards I can live with that, but I didn't test it because I knew I was going to use a crimp. I like a light roll crimp into a cannelure to help avoid bullet setback upon loading in the AR. I blew a primer in a 300 BLK once that appeared to be from bullet setback.

All other rounds fired normally. It's a popular 300 BLK bullet too, and shoots very well.

A lightlycrimped 125 Gr SST

 

[steve4102]

How do you know or what makes you think the above was from Setback?

 

[Walkalong]

All the other rounds fired fine with reasonable velocities and the primers were well rounded on the edges. The powder was close to 100% load density and I eyeballed all of them before seating a bullet. I wondered if the bullet could be setback enough to do that with a near 100% load density, but don't know what else it would have been. Has me nervous about using those bullets, and I have a brand new box of 500. Others are using them without issues. Any ideas? I haven't fooled with them since.

 

[morcey2]

All the other rounds fired fine with reasonable velocities and the primers were well rounded on the edges. The powder was close to 100% load density and I eyeballed all of them before seating a bullet. I wondered if the bullet could be setback enough to do that with a near 100% load density, but don't know what else it would have been. Has me nervous about using those bullets, and I have a brand new box of 500. Others are using them without issues. Any ideas? I haven't fooled with them since.

It's possible that it was setback, but could it possibly be that the bullet set-forward or whatever that's called and was sitting against or actually slightly into the rifling? How far off the lands was the bullet seated? I don't know the dimensions on a standard 300 BO chamber but from what I've read, a rifle round is more likely to go overpressure from being too long and being into the lands than having bullet setback. But the 300 BO is almost a pistol round in terms of capacity and propellant.

Just throwing some random ideas out there. And either way, the solution is the same. Crimp them puppies in there.

Matt