Lee- Factory crimp die

[Walkalong]

The 125 Gr TNT is pretty thin up front, so I bought it is into the rifling. 2.050 OAL. 2200ish FPS. I was under the Accurate max for Enforcer with this bullet and they loaded it at a shorter OAL.

At 2025ish FPS (Using 2400) they were slow but everything went well and they were pretty accurate. I guess I'll stick with that.

But that's all off topic.

Crimping is not good for match bullets in match guns. And in general crimping isn't good for good bullets. Never say never for factory chambers and some combinations.

 

[Bart B.]

I agree.

Crimping in bullets often improves accuracy with improperly resized and reloaded ammo with the best components. 'Tis my opinion that's the basis for all the claims crimping improves accuracy. Whether or not the person doing it knows about it.

 

[Flintknapper]

Yes, I use the Lee FCD on most of my rifle cartridges.

Many folks 'over crimp' with it however.

Depending upon what you hope/need to achieve, it might be an excellent product for you.

The re-loader looking to add a certain amount of uniformity to his/her load without turning case necks, measuring over and over....etc, might see gains from its use.

Also, those wanting an easy way to 'crimp' to help avoid bullet movement or those wishing to crimp a bullet that doesn't have a cannelure in the spot they would like for the COAL desired, might want to try it.

There is no question...that with my .458 SOCOM it has improved the accuracy of each and every of the loads I have for it (ten different loads).

So, just consider YOUR needs and choose based on that.

Often the 'naysayers' either have no practical experience with it, or are taking a myopic view of it. If the product doesn't suit their needs, then of course, its no good for YOU either, right?

 

[steve4102]

All the other rounds fired fine with reasonable velocities and the primers were well rounded on the edges. The powder was close to 100% load density and I eyeballed all of them before seating a bullet. I wondered if the bullet could be setback enough to do that with a near 100% load density, but don't know what else it would have been. Has me nervous about using those bullets, and I have a brand new box of 500. Others are using them without issues. Any ideas? I haven't fooled with them since.

As you know Enforcer is a fine ball powder.

As you also know powders of this type do not compress well.

I find it almost impossible for a 100% density load of Endorser to be set back far enough for a KB by the cycling of the action.

If the Bullet got hung during cycling with enough force to seat a 100% density load that deep, the bolt would have stopped and the round would have failed to chamber.

There is force in these actions, but not that much.

 

[thomas15]

Jeff,

I just heard from the office of upper management, they are advising that you load 100 rounds total. Use the magnificent Lee FCD on 50 of them and use only the spectacular Lee seat/crimp die on the other 50. Shoot all 100 and see if you can tell the difference between any of the rounds.

The office is thinking that you may or may not see any difference between the two. They asked, as a personal favor that you let them know if all your bullets hit the backstop.

 

[Walkalong]

the bolt would have stopped and the round would have failed to chamber.

Perhaps it fired out of battery, but I thought the AR could not. ?? The case sure looks that way though.

 

[sirgilligan]

I haven't read all of the posts. I am a novice reloader and I found that for me the easiest way to crimp was with the Lee FCD.

 

[steve4102]

Perhaps it fired out of battery, but I thought the AR could not. ?? The case sure looks that way though.

If it were an Out-of -Battery fire, then the odds are that the bullet moved forward and hindered chambering and not bullet set-back.

A bullet set back will still chamber, a bullet moved forward may not.

Crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die is your friend with Service rifles. secure the bullet from any movement either forward or backwards and enjoy trouble free, accurate shooting.

 

[Walkalong]

I'd rather just use a bullet with a cannelure I can crimp into, or a non cannelured bullet with more full diameter shank. I had all of the full diameter part of the bullet in the case neck. I am sure the FCD could stop the bullet from moving, but don't have one. Oh well.

 

[Bart B.]

The re-loader looking to add a certain amount of uniformity to his/her load without turning case necks, measuring over and over....etc, might see gains from its use.

Sierra Bullets proved decades ago crimping adds another variable to the ammo. It squeezes in bullet jackets and/or increases the bullet release force and its spread in pounds. That increases velocity ES and SD and unbalances bullets. Their reloading manuals often stated that crimping adds another variable. East to figure that out with reasonable analysis.

Discussing this issue with Sierra's first ballistic tech, he mentioned his tests with their 30 caliber 168 HPMK's when crimped even gently, 10-shot test groups at 100 yards opened up. Averaging 2/10 inch uncrimped but when gently crimped printed 3/10 inch on average. Heavily crimped in bullets averaged bigger to 1/2 inch.

 

[steve4102]

What type of Crimp did Sierra use in this test? There is the taper crimp, the roll crimp and the Lee factory Crimp. Which one did they use?

 

[Bart B.]

All three.

We discussed this while watching a knurling machine (bought as surplus from Lake City Army Ammo Plant) roll crimping grooves into 30 caliber hunting bullets at about 50 per minute. I was taken to this machine after asking about crimping their 168's.

Martin Hull said that machine also made their hunting bullets shoot less accurate but was needed so those bullets, when crimped in any way, wouldn't set back from magazine front walls slamming into them from high recoil forces; specifically the last round from the magazine. Some customers didn't size case necks enough to hold 30 caliber bullets tight enough. Ditto for other calibers.

Ask Berger, Hornady, Lapua and/or Sierra if they test their bullets for accuracy when they're crimped in case necks. And if crimping bullets for service rifles is so good for accuracy, how come the heavy 30 caliber ones won the matches and set the records without any crimp surviving more forces in use than 22 caliber service rifles have?

 

[steve4102]

With all that testing, one would think that Sierra would have an article or some other documentation maybe on their Exterior Ballistics blog to Warn us of the evils of the Lee Factory Crimp die.

You would be the guy to know, so how about it, care to post up these tests and these test results.

 

[Orcon]

Ask Berger, Hornady, Lapua and/or Sierra if they test their bullets for accuracy when they're crimped in case necks. And if crimping bullets for service rifles is so good for accuracy, how come the heavy 30 caliber ones won the matches and set the records without any crimp surviving more forces in use than 22 caliber service rifles have?

I'm going to use the Bart B. defense, I didn't personally witness it so it must a confusion of reality or a totally made up story.

OP posed a rather straight forward question, FCD yay or nay. Whether you choose to use the crimp die is a matter to be settled between your rifle, bullet and sizing die. If the forward bolt impulse isn't changing your COAL then don't crimp. If it does change, apply the crimp or find some way to increase the neck tension. Blah.:banghead:

 

[Bart B.]

Steve, you don't believe what I've said about crimping rifle bullets. And shown no proof crimped bullets shoot under 1/2 MOA through 200 yards.

Ask the bullet companies yourself. Spend some time in NRA, NBRSA and IBS competitive shooting venues and check the use of crimped in bullets producing best results.

I don't have Sierra's test targets. Contact them and get answers about how they test their 22 caliber 77-gr. HPMK's, both cannelured and standard. Ask them to show you pictures of their groups. Don't be surprised if they won't send you pictures.

I'm not the only guy to know, whether you believe that or not.

 

[Reloadron]

The use of the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) always makes for some interesting conversation and sometimes heated discussion. I remember when the die first hit the market and many claimed it was a solution for a problem which did not exist. I bought several, primarily for .308 Winchester, 30-06 Springfield and several straight wall handgun cartridges as well as rifle cartridges. I never saw any improvement using the FCD but then I never really had reason to use the thing as since I never had issues with my bullets moving in or out I saw no need. That said I did try the FCD and tested it using several identical loads. Personally I had better consistency relying strictly on neck tension (or neck hold) than when using the die.

Albeit not very good examples but the below images are of bullets seated followed by the FCD. When using a FCD the trick is not to over crimp the bullets. The first cartridge on the left is an example of a very gentle crimp, the remaining are severely over crimped. I would suggest those who use the FCD pull a few bullets and see where you have a good crimp which does not deform the bullets.





Again, the bullets to the right are severely over crimped and the difference between the bullet on the left and over done is maybe 1/4 turn on the die.

My suggestion here is if the Lee FCD works for you and you are comfortable using it then by all means use it. It comes down to what works for the individual shooter or simply put, what works best for you.

Ron

 

[Bart B.]

Bullet energy at bolt speed when loaded cartridge stops against chamber shoulder. Bullets are seated about one caliber deep in case necks........

M1, 30 caliber 175 gr. with about .30 square inch of case neck grip, 9 fps: 314 ft-lbs.

AR15, 22 caliber 55 gr. with about .15 square inch of case neck grip, 7 fps: .060 ft-lbs. A 77 gr., .084 ft-lbs.

Bullet release force unknown, but with case neck grip pressure (psi) and friction indices the same for all, release force for 30 caliber bullets will be about twice that of 22 caliber ones.

See in the below link the Garand cycle video at 1200 frames//second, the one comparing it to an AR15.

https://imgur.com/gallery/3kabN

 

[joneb]

[QUOTEThe use of the Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) always makes for some interesting conversation and sometimes heated discussion][/QUOTE]
Which die are you referring too?
I use the Lee collet crimp die for 30-30 win, 7.62 X 39 and 357 mag. none of these has a carbide ring that post sizes the round.

 

[steve4102]

Steve, you don't believe what I've said about crimping rifle bullets. And shown no proof crimped bullets shoot under 1/2 MOA through 200 yards.

Ask the bullet companies yourself. Spend some time in NRA, NBRSA and IBS competitive shooting venues and check the use of crimped in bullets producing best results.

I don't have Sierra's test targets. Contact them and get answers about how they test their 22 caliber 77-gr. HPMK's, both cannelured and standard. Ask them to show you pictures of their groups. Don't be surprised if they won't send you pictures.

I'm not the only guy to know, whether you believe that or not.

I never said that a round crimped with the LEE Factory Crimp die shoots 1/2 inch at 200 yards.

So, why would I need to show proof for something I never said or claimed?

I said that the Lee Factory (if used correctly) can improve accuracy. I showed a test done with three different rifles in three different cartridges that did show improved accuracy by applying a Lee Factory Crimp.

You on the other hand, claim that the Lee Factory Crimp die degrades accuracy, You claim that Sierra proved this decades ago.

You admit that you have never used or tested a Lee Factory Crimp die,

You admit that you cannot back up your claim that Sierra has tested the Lee Factory Crimp die.

You admit that everything you claim about the LFCD is just your opinion and you have NO Hard data or facts to back it up.

You have nothing from Sierra, you have no range test results, you have never used a LFCD, yet you continue to post your unsubstantiated "Opinion" of the evils of a tool you have never even seen let alone tested.

Go get yourself a LFCD and test if for accuracy. then come back and share your result. Otherwise you have absolutely NOTHING of substance to offer in this thread.

Anyone can make ridiculous unsubstantiated claims like you.
Like this.

Hornady proved decades ago that crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die improved accuracy upwards of 200%.
Now, you Bart, you prove this statement false. I do not have to prove it true, you must prove it false.

 

[Swampman]

Short version:
If you're shooting a non target grade rifle and your bullet has a properly placed cannalure, the collet type FCD is probably not going to hurt anything and may help with keeping velocities and C.O.A.L. consistent.
If you're shooting an accurate match rifle, you're probably going to get better results by reducing the diameter of your expander ball to increase neck tension, especially when using bullets without a cannalure or one that's improperly placed for the B.O.

Long version:
There's no single right answer that covers every situation, sometimes a crimp is a good thing, sometimes it's not.

I've found that the 300 Blackout does very well with cast bullets. The majority of the ammo I load in that chambering uses them. If anyone can tell me how to avoid using any crimp after you've belled case mouths to seat cast, I'm all ears.

For me, the greatest benefit of the FCD is that it allows me to get reasonably uniform crimps even when my case lengths have a little variation. I don't mind spending the time to trim, chamfer and deburr my cases when I'm loading for accuracy. If I'm loading up a couple of hundred rounds of low pressure subsonics to shoot with friends at the sand pit, I don't generally bother as long as the cases are within spec.

Most of the jacketed bullets I've used have cannalures that are in the wrong place for loading in 300 Blackout, for them I use the reduced diameter expander ball from my .308 Winchester die set and don't crimp.

I've loaded a few Barnes 110 grain tipped triple shock bullets for hogs.The cannalure on them is properly placed and during my work-up, crimps gave me more uniform velocities, so I crimp with that bullet.

You've already got the FCD, why not try it out where appropriate and draw your own conclusions? I guarantee that the results you obtain will be more useful to you than 50 pages worth of other people's opinions.

@Bart B
How did Sierra prove anything about the FCD "decades ago"?
I don't think the FCD has been around more than 10 or 15 years.

 

[steve4102]

@Bart B
How did Sierra prove anything about the FCD "decades ago"?
I don't think the FCD has been around more than 10 or 15 years.

He made it up!

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

In my experience which is fairly limited but fielded experience, the Lee FCD makes crimping the .308 Winchester simple. In neither my Sig 716 nor my bolt action rifle has it been needed. It seems to ad a potential element of complication. It could easily create a problem that didn't need a solution. I have found a subtle crimp to be harmless, perhaps could even save me from a rare danger that others have experienced. However the first thing I noticed when I quit crimping was an increase in accuracy. But in my opinion if a motivated person perfected the crimp, spent many hours of their lives and and a large part of their shooting funds, that person could perfect a crimp to create uniform pressures. Strictly in my humble opinion.

 

[Reloadron]

How did Sierra prove anything about the FCD "decades ago"?
I don't think the FCD has been around more than 10 or 15 years.

While my earliest memories are early to mid 90s I have seen online conversation and reference going back to 1990. That would place it back about 25 or 26 years. I do remember its merits were debated than and apparently remain so today. As I mentioned previously, if it works for you then use it, really pretty simple to figure out.

Ron

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don't have any experience using a LFCD on rifle cartridges so I'm going to just give my opinion about it anyway.

Just kidding. I'm trying out the new front end to see if all the effort was worth it. Looks good so far. Spell check doesn't seem to be working 100% though.

I just started loading my first HTG rifle cartridge. I was given a bunch of .223/5.56 brass so I had to buy the rifle, right.
Anyway, I just primed some of those cases last night and I'm ready to charge some brass and seat some bullets. I was going to ask the question if I need to crimp but this thread has given me the idea to try some without it. I'm not a huge fan of seating and crimping in one step and I use a LFCD on my 45 ACP loads. I may end up buying one for my .223 but will try no crimp first.

This thread came up at exactly the right time.

 

[steve4102]

While my earliest memories are early to mid 90s I have seen online conversation and reference going back to 1990. That would place it back about 25 or 26 years. I do remember its merits were debated than and apparently remain so today. As I mentioned previously, if it works for you then use it, really pretty simple to figure out.

Ron

Bart has said in previous posts that Sierra did these tests back in the 50's.


Brief History of Lee Reloading Equipment
The Lee reloading business began in the home workshop of Richard Lee in 1958 with the invention of the famous Lee Loader for shotgun shells. Lee Loaders, for rifle and pistol ammunition, were invented in the early sixties. These highly effective and economical tools introduced over one and a half million shooters to reloading.


The seventies saw the first lathe turned aluminum bullet molds along with melters and sizers. These make casting bullets easy and more precise than ever before possible. The molds are so precise that most Lee bullets do not require sizing. Toward the mid decade, the enormously popular Lee Load-All for shotgun shells was invented.


The huge following of Lee Loader users enthusiastically upgraded to new Lee presses and dies when they were introduced in the eighties. Many owners of other brands of dies and presses were easily won over because of the innovative features offered only by Lee. During this period, tens of thousands' of reloaders enjoyed the speed and fun of reloading with the Lee Turret Press and the most popular of all progressive presses the Lee Pro 1000.

Initially, every Lee product is distinctly different from products offered by other companies. Soon however, other companies imitate our inventions and offer products almost as good, but at higher prices. Dies, presses, crimpers, powder measures, priming tools, scales, bullet molds, melters, bullet sizers, lubricants, turrets, trimmers and many accessories are all inventions introduced by Lee and copied by others.

Find it hard to believe Sierra did any testing of the Lee Factory Crimp die back in the 50's as Bart has claimed.


http://leeprecision.com/history.html