Legal Ramifications: It might not be over for a long time

[Jeff White]

In July of 2015 there was a shooting on a beach on the Big River south of St Louis. All that's really known is there was a confrontation, one man shot another, and that the shooter claimed self defense and no charges were filed.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_cd5e7bf7-57bd-56ed-b7f0-c08b12af72f6.html

Now, a little more then a year later the mother of the "victim" (who knows who is the real victim here) is pushing for charges to be filed.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...tent=7879ACA3FCF356F41DEA6B5339292ED9726C1F14

The take away for all of us here is that when a verbal conflict escalates into a use of force, the issue of if it was really self defense is often not clear at all.

All that's known for sure is that a little more then a year after that day at the beach, this is still hanging over Michael Kovach Jr's head.

The article doesn't paint a very nice picture of Kovach, but it's printed in an anti gun/anti self defense newspaper.

It's almost always the best idea not to engage in a verbal altercation while armed.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Sad for all involved.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Isn't the best idea to not get involved in verbal altercations regardless of whether you are armed or not?

Of course, the way the stories read, getting into a verbal altercation wasn't really the big problem of the day.

 

[boom boom]

As with some many bad things that happen, it takes a multiplicity of bad choices to end up as a tragedy.

Example, guy buys firearm but doesn't bother to carry it legally. Guy fails to get any training whatsoever. Guy tries to act like a "white knight" by confronting about littering and cursing "yutes" who have been drinking--my guess is that they were drinking in the rc area illegally but the story saith not. Guy has a vehicle that will not lock apparently (vehicle not in proper shape).

Good choices would be: responsible firearm ownership and following all laws regarding that choice, avoiding confronting groups of individuals who have been drinking--call the police if necessary or park management, have your vehicle in proper shape including locks (how else are you to discourage theft of firearms or carjacking), avoiding the whole monkey dance scenario by challenging a potential thug in front of others by calling them out (BTW, someone who is cursing repeatedly in front of children, littering, and drinking in public, and with several individuals doing the same--not exactly what you would expect to be a fine upstanding individual to do--and yes I am profiling here based on actions).

The deceased felon made similar poor choices which ultimately took his life. But, would anyone want to be on the hotseat with a jury when the whole confrontation could have been avoided by the white knight by exiting the area when potential troublemakers start acting up particularly if you have non-combatants such as a wife and children in tow. If you have to prove your testosterone count in front of others, take up martial arts and compete in tournaments.

I am leaving out a whole lot of other alternative conflicts but a few proverbs come to mind:

"A soft answer turneth away wrath."--Confrontation can escalate regardless but you have a choice to try to de-escalate it and withdraw rather than challenge.

"Let he without sin cast the first stone"--when you are breaking the law by carrying illegally--not recommended to chastise someone for littering, drinking, and cursing.

"Render unto Caeser etc."--call the police and let them deal with it--as a citizen, you can police yourself but it is fraught with danger to police others.

 

[lemaymiami]

Back to the original premise... The ramifications/results of any shooting may take years to sort out -that's been my experience as well. As a young officer I shot and killed a man on duty -then went through a year's worth of court appearances (and got to watch quite a bit of perjury in open court from friends and family of the deceased....) before the incident was finally ruled as justified. When the family never filed a wrongful death suit I thought the matter was finished - but got a surprise a few years later....

Fully three years after the incident I received a letter from DOJ about the "civil rights investigation" that they were closing. This was an investigation that neither I or my department was ever notified of.... The closing letter stated that they were suspending the investigation but wanted me to know that they'd re-open it if I were ever involved in another shooting.... The letter was received in the early eighties and I saved it for some years before finally tossing it... It did stay with me, though for the rest of my career. Nice to know where you stand in the general scheme of things..... The day I left police work (retired out in 1995) I quit carrying a sidearm and have not regretted that decision even once in the more than 20 years since....

 

[Spats McGee]

The legal reality if you shoot and kill someone is this: You can win every court battle related to the shooting and still lose big. In time. In money. In stress, family and friends. The list really does go on and on.

When I get assigned a police case, one of the first things I do is call the officer and tell them: "You stop worrying about this. It's my job to worry about this. That's why they pay me the big bucks. If the time comes for you to worry, I'll tell you." I can't have them distracted by litigation on the side of the road at 4 a.m. (ETA: Just so that the record is clear, I have not handled a shooting case. I have, however, handled quite a few excessive force cases that did not involve shooting.)

Another reality is that the police have the benefit of a some kind of insurance / risk management pool, and a salaried legal department to protect them. The terms and conditions vary, but damages don't usually come out of the officer's pocket for on-the-job shootings. For private (non-LEO) citizens, that's not the case.

 

[lemaymiami]

One other minor point about what I went through... As a young officer I was quite aware that my City's financial situation was directly at risk if I acted in accordance with the law, our policies and proceedures, etc. In other words they're welfare was linked to mine...

If at any point I was found to have acted illegally or improperly though - that would change and it might not be in my City's interest to defend or support me... That's where belonging to a police union (in our case it was the local PBA that handled all of our contract negotiations and stood ready to provide legal assistance if needed...) was quite attractive... The reality, though, was far less support than I'd hoped for. When I observed some serious coordinated perjury occurring during several hearings where it was being decided whether my actions were justified... I went to the PBA, reported what I'd observed and asked for a lawyer... As best as I can remember the response was, "kid, you get indicted - you come see us..."

No, it wasn't what I expected and it contributed to a serious consideration of whether I was foolish to stay in police work... Over time it resolved itself - but I never forgot one bit of what I went through. All of that experience was with me when years later I was the one reviewing police use of force incidents (up to and including police shootings) both for my own officers and finally for my entire department. If you only watched what news media had to say about any police shooting you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg as folks at every level (starting with the agency, then the state attorney's office, then the feds, then the politicians...) wrestle with the consequences of any shooting. For an armed citizen, you're only facing the state's attorney as well as any civil actions that result - but it's no less onerous.... or difficult, or life altering...

 

[ilbob]

It's almost always the best idea not to engage in a verbal altercation.

Why does anyone want to argue with a stranger about anything. Who knows what kind of nut you are dealing with.

 

[justice06rr]

There are many details on the second link that may or may not be accurate.

Victim had some sort of criminal history.

Shooter was a veteran with pstd and family issues. The altercation could have been avoided; hindsight is 20/20 but at the time of the event it is not always easy to make a good judgement based on the situation (especially the safety of family and children involved).

Its always best to walk away from any conflict--but this is easier said than done. It takes a very calm and mature individual to do so, and even such a person still has limits e.g. if the safety of your family is compromised.