Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Jeff White, Dec 12, 2017.
The perp accused the lady of throwing something out her window. There's a difference.
If the attack was over then the justification for deadly force does not exist. You can not defend yourself against an attack that has ended. It's as simple as that. If she reasonably believed that the attack would continue then she would have been justified in using deadly force, but a solid rule of thumb is that deadly force is about prevention/defense, not about retaliation/punishment.
In the video, the attack ended with the body slam and therefore shooting the man afterwards would have been murder.
That's what I was trying to get across with the comment about: "If the evidence showed that the attack was still in progress at the time deadly force was used and also that the attack was likely to cause serious injury or death, and also that there was no reasonable alternative but to use deadly force, then deadly force would have been justified to prevent serious death/injury."
The word "after" should be a red flag when it comes to the use of deadly force. Justification for deadly force is associated with the words "imminent" and "in progress", punishment and retaliation are associated with the word "after".
Did you check the time period I suggested, John? It shows her, post-slam, with the man looming over her and raising his hand. "After" the body slam is not the same as 'after the attack', and a reasonable person would be justified in believing (IMHO) the attack had not stopped yet. If I could figure out a way to post a screen cap, I would display the time I'm talking about.
Until he turns away, most reasonable people, having been body-slammed, would believe they were in the *middle* of an attack; until he does something to signal he's not pursuing it further, self-defense would be warranted. You wouldn't posit that you could only shoot a man striking you with an axe while it was en route to your body, would you? There's a totality of circumstances to be considered; that attack didn't 'end' until the man turned from it.
After RR Body Slam by DT Guy posted Dec 29, 2017 at 1:32 PM
After RR Body Slam 1 by DT Guy posted Dec 29, 2017 at 1:32 PM
Did you read my entire post?
"If the evidence showed that the attack was still in progress at the time deadly force was used and also that the attack was likely to cause serious injury or death, and also that there was no reasonable alternative but to use deadly force, then deadly force would have been justified to prevent serious death/injury."
In other words, if she reasonably believed that the attack was still in progress, deadly force could have been justified after the body slam depending on the rest of the circumstances.
If she had shot the guy after the body slam and you were her lawyer, you would want to do just what you did in the post above and hope that the jury agrees--they probably would as long as deadly force was used while a reasonable person would agree that the defender believed the attack was still in progress at the time deadly force was used.
You argue that we're "slicing this very finely", and I agree. However, that's not how it started out. I was responding to this blanket statement: " I'm guessing after the body-slam, it would have been fairly justified..."
At least the person slammed could so contend.
But one who has not done everything possible to avoid the need for using deadly force (the legal term is preclusion) may not prevail in a defense of justification.
The man was obviously acting in an unlawful manner, but that alone would not justify the use of deadly force against him.
I agree-the lady's actions prior to the attack were unwise, at best. I was speaking only to the appropriateness of defense after the physical attack had commenced.
The first sentence of the original post, ''The backstory that's been released is that this woman threw something from her car that the guy in the pickup says hit his truck''.
''The backstory that's been released is that this woman threw something from her car that the guy in the pickup says hit his truck''.
i don't believe the "back story". Who were the witnesses? We have a scumbag who has served two prison sentences for domestic violence. You can believe that this man was provoked if you want to.
That's also irrelevant. Provoked or not, the incident happened. The woman was victimized because of decisions she made after the assailant was (or not) provoked.
That is not a sure thing, but it is likely. That is what I was getting at with one of my earlier posts.
There are people out there who either have serious self control problems or are simply looking for victims. It is unwise to go through life in such a way as to attract attention from that kind of person.
I do nothing to escalate the encounter. I smile, wave, shrug, and let the idiot think I'm apologizing for whatever he thinks I did . . . which is usually a mystery to me. The main thing is, I make sure that if the situation escalates, ALL the escalation will come from HIM. (Staying INSIDE my vehicle, calling 911 and/or driving to the nearest police station are the next steps in my contingency plan.)
So far, it's worked; each time, the road rage idiot has driven off no doubt thinking he's Alpha Male King of the Road . . . and I haven't had to shoot anyone. Good outcome in my book. And if there's anything to the concept of karma, eventually he'll run into someone just as hotheaded as he is . . . and my guess is that he won't be particularly happy with the outcome.
Thank you.You make my day
And how many folks know where their local police station is, let alone if you are traveling someplace you have never been before?
With all of the navigation apps on smart phones and all the navigation systems in vehicles the location of the nearest police station should be easy enough to find. Even if you don't have a navigation app on your phone or a nav system in your vehicle, a call to the police should be able to get you directions. They can also dispatch an officer to meet you somewhere if it's a long drive to the nearest police station.
I think most folks who CC consider themselves somewhat prepared. I would hope that basic GPS use would be part of that. Dialing 911 and just giving them your location would have the same effect.
Unless this is a serious road rage where the other person is driving erratically and maybe trying to force you off the road; then you might not be able to use your phone. If I'm taking a cross country trip, I am not taking chances of getting an Interstate and maybe finding myself in that "wrong neighborhood" or getting lost on side streets. Just sayin', finding that local police station isn't always that easy. We had a situation where a young woman went to the main police station in town about 8 or 9 at night and couldn't get in. She was being chased by her ex who gunned her down at the front door because it was locked..........
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