AKElroy
Member
Handgun--below; rifle--above.
Let's put it to a vote ... which way are the barrels pointing relative to the sights?
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Well, this is the revolver forum, afterall.
The Bushmaster
Member
Walkalong...Check your Kimber. I just answered wrong in the poll because when I checked my Kimber UCC II the barrel looked like it was pointed slightly up at the muzzle.
berettaprofessor
Member
I agree that recoil begins when the bullet starts to move, but the rise is negligable during the time the bullet exits the barrels. Walkalong take a look at the videos below and then tell me if you want to correct your statement; it's a theory, not a fact till you prove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIqnvdQn5NM&list=PL4842AC9A702314D0&playnext=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um9Eos9bJDk&p=4842AC9A702314D0&playnext=1
Pistols/rifles/all the same....physics is physics and the only difference between pistols and rifles is the degree of compensation in the sights for the drop expected by gravity.
Good point 9mmepiphany, I can't explain it.
Are all you guys/gals really arguing that if you put a handgun in a vise and fire it with the sights exactly on target that it won't hit below the target?
By the way, the video's are both from a previous thread in General Discussion just from August that was closed (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=540863). Anybody got any better and more recent info? Or should we just close this one now because nobody gets convinced?
Actually we're not...because that wasn't the original question.berettaprofessor said:
The OP was:
1858 said:
...and from the pictures I think you have your photographic proof that when the sights are aligned (on a flat surface), the barrels point below the point of aim
Are you really arguing that the barrels are pointing above the point of aim?
Given the photographic evidence and that no one is arguing that a gun in a vise would hit below the point of aim, you really only have two choices. Either:
1. The gun recoils enough to cause the bullet to launch upward
or
2. The bullet rises on it's own in it's flight downrange
How much rise at the muzzle would you think it would take to bring the bore above the line of sight?berettaprofessor said:
I have watched both of the video clips that you have attached and don't think that they support your stance...I think you are being distracted by the initial flash before the bullet exits the barrel
berettaprofessor said:
Define NEGLIGIBLE!! I've already given an example earlier when I mentioned my GP100. It has a 4-1/2" sight radius. If it's shooting to point of aim, the barrel would only need to rise by 0.056" to be 6" high at 15 yards. To me, 0.056" is NEGLIGIBLE movement and more than likely I wouldn't notice the barrel rising by such a tiny amount if I were watching a video or someone shooting. But make no mistake, if you double that muzzle rise to 0.120" (just under 1/8"), the POI would be 12" higher!!
berettaprofessor said:
No, that's exactly the point. If a handgun is fixed in a vice and CAN'T move, and the sights are aligned with the target, the bullet will impact where the barrel is pointing i.e. LOW. But you have to realize, when we fire a handgun offhand, we align the sights BEFORE the bullet starts to move down the barrel. If you could freeze the handgun at the very instant the bullet leaves the barrel, the barrel will be pointing at the POA (if you've done it right) but the sights will be aligned with a point on the target ABOVE the point of aim. This is where manufactures of fixed sight models have to scratch their heads and make an educated guess as to the most likely type of ammunition that an owner will use. For my GP100 with a 3" barrel, Ruger probably assumed I would be shooting something like 125gr .357 Mag ammunition since it just about shoots to POA at 15 yards with that type of loads.
Just to be funny...
...I was going to vote Above, but too many people voted that choice already. It won't be funny any more.
Try this: Shoot your gun (ANY type of action) and adjust the sights at any range you want. Then get one of those lazer bore-sighters and stick it in the muzzle, then aim the gun at your chosen distance. You just learned something, didn't you?
Those who use a Ransom Rest know to use the sights just as a point of reference, because the POI will not be the same as hand-held shooting.
...I was going to vote Above, but too many people voted that choice already. It won't be funny any more.
Try this: Shoot your gun (ANY type of action) and adjust the sights at any range you want. Then get one of those lazer bore-sighters and stick it in the muzzle, then aim the gun at your chosen distance. You just learned something, didn't you?
Those who use a Ransom Rest know to use the sights just as a point of reference, because the POI will not be the same as hand-held shooting.
KodiakBeer
member
The amount of that drop is measured by the length of time the bullet is in flight. If the target is 10 yards away (30 feet) and the speed of the bullet is 1000 fps then the bullet doesn't have time to drop more than a negligible amount in that time. .03 of second? Hold a slug at arms length and time the distance it falls in .03 seconds... It's certainly not enough to bother compensating the sights for that drop.
wanderinwalker
Member
Completely different ranges and barrel dwell times, apples to oranges.
Consider this: As a rough rule of thumb, a movement of 8 thousandths of an inch (that's measured as .008") will shift a bullet fired from a rifle 1" at 100 yards. This is a very rough rule, as it varies a lot by sight radius, but you get the idea.
Think of the clicks on an adjustable sighted handgun. These will shift your POI about 3/4" at 25-yards on most models, again depending on sight radius. Can you look at the sights, adjust them a click and then tell they've moved using the old Mk I eyeball?
The firearm starts moving in reaction to the bullet moving down the barrel. The changes required to shift where that bullet impacts downrange are SO SLIGHT the even on high speed, while it looks like the bullet has left the barrel before recoil starts, the muzzle is in fact rising.
I used to have this discussion with one of my old coworkers. He never did believe me that the gun is moving before the bullet exits the barrel.
interesting post. had to pull out the weapons and check. the only thing i have with barrels pointing above line-of-sight are my 2 ruger 22 auto's (a markI and III). both sighted in 6" high at 25 yards. the s&w41, k22 and bearcat come close, but are below LOS. everything else is well below LOS.
murf
murf
oldfool
Member
I voted with the majority of course... but like all questions, it can be parsedOK...now I want to know who the 2 folks are that voted that the bore line is above the sight line
I will admit to being surprised when I first found out that the 1911, with the slide locked forward, had the barrel locked at a downward angle at the front...the chamber/barrel hood is higher than the muzzle
depending on adjustment range of your rear sight, and how far you are throwing lead at distant enough target, (bullet drop compensation req'd no matter how hefty the recoil), the barrel bore most certainly will be pointed upward slope relative to line of sight (bore line not "above", sights not mounted under the barrel of course, but at upward slope)
obvious analogy is a rear ladder sight on an old Sharps buffalo rifle.. or a scoped gun
true, not a likely out-of-box sight setup on any handgun I can think of, but some folks do throw lead a whole lot further out there than I do
Vern Humphrey
Member
As I mentioned earlier, some but not all handguns point below the line of sight. The exceptions are those sighted for very long range which are mostly specialty pistols like the Thompson-Center single shots chambered in rifle calibers.
berettaprofessor
Member
To paraphrase Maya Angelou, "Life has taught me undeniably that surrender, in its place, is as honorable as resistance, especially if one has no choice.”
Yeah, that's me surrendering....to the math of 1858.
Yeah, that's me surrendering....to the math of 1858.
So basically the sights should be pointing at an upward slope in relation to the bore, until you hit the point where the bullet drop due to gravity is great enough to offset the change in bore direction while the bullet is still in the barrel?
chicharrones
needs more ammo
BCRider
Member
Remember the 4 position front sights that were available from S&W at one point? There was a cam that had 4 separetley adjustable screws that altered the height of the front blade just to compensate for target shooting in events such as PPC for the various range tasks. I suspect that the sight line to bore axis likely varied from quite negative for the close in shots to level or perhaps positive for the long range setting.
BCRider said:
You would think so, until you realized that the PPC crowd, for which these sights were introduced (regardless of what market they used), used to use a neck hold (the head acting as a dot atop the front sight) for the 50 yard shots...meaning the front sight was raised and the bore depressed even more below the sight line
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