Let's talk mechanical/beam scales for a minute

[Reloadron]

What I didn't realize using the Lee, as it was what I had, was that the Lee is somewhat of a pain to use. It is better as a check scale, than it is for weighing things.

My thinking also and their naming convention is Lee Safety Scale.



While not exactly a high precision weighing device it does work and is about as inexpensive as anyone will find.

Ron

 

[hdwhit]

D.B. Cooper asked:
The RCBS comes with a grains to grams conversion chart, which I understood meant that it read in grams. (Why else would you need to convert?

The RCBS balance reads in grains.

You would need to convert from grains to grams if you're using metric reloading data which is becoming increasing prevalent as several powders are imported from Europe.

If the balance was graduated in metric measurement, the user would need a "grams to grains" conversion chart, not a "grains to gram".

 

[rpenmanparker]

I second the ebay thing, lots of redding beams on there and 30 bucks to your door is common.

I prefer beam scales, just because I like mechanical things, and gravity seems to stay about the same here.
The electrics seem to be affected too easily by weird electromagnetic fields. Fluorescent lights, cell phones, laptops, etc, etc. I don't trust them.

Interesting. The most demanding scientific studies are performed exclusively with electronic balances/scales very commonly to 0.1 mg (0001 g). Have been since about 1970. In science mechanical scales are curiosities on the mantlepiece. I highly doubt that any of the factors you cite interfere with the accuracy and precision of electronic ones.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Find a good used RCBS 5-0-5 and don't look back.

E-bay has a bunch of them at reasonable prices. Some are even new.

 

[Reloadron]

Interesting. The most demanding scientific studies are performed exclusively with electronic balances/scales very commonly to 0.1 mg (0001 g). Have been since about 1970. In science mechanical scales are curiosities on the mantlepiece. I highly doubt that any of the factors you cite interfere with the accuracy and precision of electronic ones.

Forum member bds has done a few threads on both beam and digital scales where each type was pretty much beat to death and beyond. Here is one such thread from the reloading library of wisdom. A forum search should bring up others including one where each type was evaluated. I still use and have both types. The newer designs in the digital family have come a long way in overcoming obstacles such as temperature. Higher end digital scales have also come down in price.

In the end people should choose and use a scale they are comfortable with and a scale which affords accurate repeatable results, be it a balance type or digital electronic flavor.

Ron

 

[KansasSasquatch]

Interesting. The most demanding scientific studies are performed exclusively with electronic balances/scales very commonly to 0.1 mg (0001 g). Have been since about 1970. In science mechanical scales are curiosities on the mantlepiece. I highly doubt that any of the factors you cite interfere with the accuracy and precision of electronic ones.

I'm no expert but I imagine most of those scientific studies use higher quality electronic scales that aren't as prone to interference as the cheap digital scales marketed for reloading purposes

 

[The Bushmaster]

I use an old RCBS Powder Pro electronic scale that is more accurate then my RCBS 5-0-5 and is repeatable.

 

[GT1]

Interesting. The most demanding scientific studies are performed exclusively with electronic balances/scales very commonly to 0.1 mg (0001 g). Have been since about 1970. In science mechanical scales are curiosities on the mantlepiece. I highly doubt that any of the factors you cite interfere with the accuracy and precision of electronic ones.

Those lab scales are generally not seen on any reloading benches, because the cost of one outweighs all the other equipment combined several times over. The scales generally available/practical to us ceilings out around 500-600 bucks(something like a FX-120i ), and again, they aren't common either, because 600 bucks to do what most of us are doing is 500 too much.

 

[SamT1]

I’d agree anything electric used for scientific testing has got to be in the $1000 and up range. Besides that scientists love to spend money on pointless crap because someone else is always paying the bill.

We have a certified scale at work it’s in the 50k plus price range for weighing trucks. It’s plus or minus 20lb. While the old time pit elevator scales that use a balance+weights and are “obsolete” can be accurate down to 1lb if calibrate correctly.

Besides that what you electric guys going to do if the Russians send an EMP over us and you can’t get in your safe or run your reloading scale? That’s a joke I hope!

 

[GT1]

I was just over at a place where the FX-120i is sold, they have the lab stuff there, $1800-$3500+, I stopped looking after the first page. Yikes.
My Lyman M5 looks pretty sweet to me, I don't care if it is (probably)older than I am. It is consistent, and my check weights say it is good enough. . Absolutely fine for what I'm doing.

 

[Reloadron]

Those lab scales are generally not seen on any reloading benches, because the cost of one outweighs all the other equipment combined several times over. The scales generally available/practical to us ceilings out around 500-600 bucks(something like a FX-120i ), and again, they aren't common either, because 600 bucks to do what most of us are doing is 500 too much.

The extent of my matches literally ended at the 500 yard line using a 30-06 Springfield or 308 Winchester cartridge. With ammunition loaded to +/- 0.1 grain I never saw any significant differences over the chronograph using an Oehler 35P which I still have and use. More important than velocity I never saw much difference in my little holes in the target which is what actually counts. The F Class guys shooting out to 1,000 yards seem to be more selective in their powder weighing but eventually I think we hit a point of diminishing returns, unless we can control every other feature including neck tension (bullet hold), brass consistency, loaded round concentricity, and a host of other features keeping our charge weights +/- 0.01 grain really doesn't mean much. However, if one feels the need and it trips your trigger then by all means go for it.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Find a good used RCBS 5-0-5 and don't look back.

E-bay has a bunch of them at reasonable prices. Some are even new.

Comically, with all te discussion here about grain to gram conversion, all of the scales you mention have OUNCE to grain charts lol.

The extent of my matches literally ended at the 500 yard line using a 30-06 Springfield or 308 Winchester cartridge. With ammunition loaded to +/- 0.1 grain I never saw any significant differences over the chronograph using an Oehler 35P which I still have and use. More important than velocity I never saw much difference in my little holes in the target which is what actually counts...

0.1 is good enough. Like you, 600 yrds is my outer limit (Service Rifle) and 30-06. I would never shot at an animal that far. The bulk of what I'm doing is handgun out to 25 yrds. What I'm going for here is to not freak out when, after loading 20 rounds, I check the charge weight only to find that it's over maximum, then check the charge weight again and find out that it's normal, then check it again and find out that it's under minimum, etc etc etc.

 

[jmorris]

I have a number of them, I’d rather use the somewhat crude old Pacific scale I have than mess with the Lee, it was cheap and got us by when we started but a pain to use. My “go to” beam scales are the good old 10-10 and 5-0-5 both can detect the addition of a single kernel of powder to the pan.

 

[Charlie98]

I'm a big fan of the RCBS 5-0-5, I've been using the one that came in my Reloader Special kit from way back in 1986. I got a Hornady beam with a single-stage press kit, I didn't care for it, and most of the other ones I've ever worked with or fooled with. If I had to replace my 5-0-5 tomorrow... I'd go dig up another 5-0-5. I don't have an electronic scale, nor really any desire for one.

 

[someguy2800]

I have a 1950’s Redding cast iron balance beam with no damping mechanism. I put tape across the pointer opening to restrict the movement to about -.2 grains and +.1 grains. I weighed thousands of charges on that tricking up to exact weight with charges dropped light from an rcbs uniflow.

No time for that anymore. Everything comes out of the Lyman powder dispenser or the auto drum. The Redding gets used mabey once a year to check the check weights. The scale on my Lyman gen 6 has been unfailingly accurate with every weight I’ve ever tried to weigh on both. Best money I’ve ever spent on reloading.

 

[labnoti]

The reason electronic scales have trouble measuring to 0.1 grains is because the load cells are actually manufactured to measure in gram units (milligrams). It is extremely doubtful that anyone is manufacturing a grain unit load cell. Obviously this is not a component that the logo-branding companies are making themselves. They source load cells calibrated to measure gram units, which are simply mathematically converted to grains with electronics.

And guess what precision most of these load cells are specified to? 0.001 gram. Now convert that mathematically to grains: 0.154 grains. The scale will readout tenths of a grain, but it will be rounding based on thousandths of a gram. It will be very difficult to get within a tenth grain when the scale can only measure to a precision of one and a half tenths.

The practical solution is to use the digital scale to get yourself close to a "book" load (say within a couple tenths of a grain), and then starting working based on volume. A beam scale can do the same. I don't think the reloading-branded beams scales will be any more precise than a 0.001 gram digital scale, but the will get you close to a starting point just as well. Then ladder your charges based on volume rather than mass. I do that with a Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure which makes it very easy, but there are numerous tools and techniques to measure powder volume with repeatable precision. Of course it also helps to be using a flake powder and not something harder to achieve consistent volume with, such as extruded powders.

The brute force solution is to get a scale with 0.0001 gram precision. It will be laboratory equipment with a draft shield and it will probably cost more than $450 with better ones costing double that. That will measure to 0.0015 grains, but it could be slow and tedious to use.

 

[rpenmanparker]

The reason electronic scales have trouble measuring to 0.1 grains is because the load cells are actually manufactured to measure in gram units (milligrams). It is extremely doubtful that anyone is manufacturing a grain unit load cell. Obviously this is not a component that the logo-branding companies are making themselves. They source load cells calibrated to measure gram units, which are simply mathematically converted to grains with electronics.

And guess what precision most of these load cells are specified to? 0.001 gram. Now convert that mathematically to grains: 0.154 grains. The scale will readout tenths of a grain, but it will be rounding based on thousandths of a gram. It will be very difficult to get within a tenth grain when the scale can only measure to a precision of one and a half tenths.

The practical solution is to use the digital scale to get yourself close to a "book" load (say within a couple tenths of a grain), and then starting working based on volume. A beam scale can do the same. I don't think the reloading-branded beams scales will be any more precise than a 0.001 gram digital scale, but the will get you close to a starting point just as well. Then ladder your charges based on volume rather than mass. I do that with a Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure which makes it very easy, but there are numerous tools and techniques to measure powder volume with repeatable precision. Of course it also helps to be using a flake powder and not something harder to achieve consistent volume with, such as extruded powders.

The brute force solution is to get a scale with 0.0001 gram precision. It will be laboratory equipment with a draft shield and it will probably cost more than $450 with better ones costing double that. That will measure to 0.0015 grains, but it could be slow and tedious to use.

It appears you made a 10X error in converting grams to grains. 0.001 g = 0.0154 gr, not 0.154 gr. I believe that difference would drastically change the logic of your argument. An electronic scale with 0.001 g resolution should have no trouble accurately and precisely measuring 0.10 gr and should still be quite good below that, though not capable of 0.010 gr.

 

[rpenmanparker]

The really big difference between beam mechanical balances and electronic scales/balances for reloaders is the greater likelihood of user error with the mechanical ones. Using a swinging beam balance requires good technique to obtain good accuracy and precision. It is all about estimating the equivalence of the swings of the beam above and below (or to the left and right) of the zero mark. That takes some training as opposed to just reading a digital screen on an electronic balance. If the user stops the swinging of the balance or limits it to a range near the zero to speed up the process, the measurement will likely be erroneous.

Furthermore on both types of balances/scales a enclosure is required around the device for accuracy and precision at finer resolutions, certainly at 0.001 gr and very likely at 0.01 gr. Does a reloader really want to mess with that aggravation? I wouldn't think so. If you have a balance/scale with an enclosure and you don't close it for the final reading, you will not get an accurate/precise result at such high resolution.

 

[jmorris]

I can repeat inside a tenth of a grain in my open air shop without an enclosure.



And some scales (some even come with their own enclosures) can’t do the same.



That’s in the programming though.

I have had a Dillon electric scale for decades, it’s the scale I use most often. Because it’s the easiest to use, accurate and doesn’t auto zero itself.

And guess what precision most of these load cells are specified to? 0.001 gram. Now convert that mathematically to grains: 0.154 grains. The scale will readout tenths of a grain, but it will be rounding based on thousandths of a gram. It will be very difficult to get within a tenth grain when the scale can only measure to a precision of one and a half tenths.

They generally sell them with precision, repeatability, hysteresis, creep, etc in terms of a percentage of “Full scale”. So the smaller maximum, the more precision. If you look at it that way you can see it would be fairly simple to alter what they measure and you can gain more precision mechanically, from a load cell. Actually what I am doing for a project right now.

Just use a lever, a 3rd class lever in this instance, you can also go the other direction as well and measure things that are much heavier than the limits of a scale too, with a 2nd class lever. Back before corner scales existed we used regular bathroom scales and levers to corner weigh automobiles.

At that point it’s just a matter of determining what the mechanical advantage is and calibration to your readout. That has to be done either way though.

 

[someguy2800]

The reason electronic scales have trouble measuring to 0.1 grains is because the load cells are actually manufactured to measure in gram units (milligrams). It is extremely doubtful that anyone is manufacturing a grain unit load cell. Obviously this is not a component that the logo-branding companies are making themselves. They source load cells calibrated to measure gram units, which are simply mathematically converted to grains with electronics.

And guess what precision most of these load cells are specified to? 0.001 gram. Now convert that mathematically to grains: 0.154 grains. The scale will readout tenths of a grain, but it will be rounding based on thousandths of a gram. It will be very difficult to get within a tenth grain when the scale can only measure to a precision of one and a half tenths.

The practical solution is to use the digital scale to get yourself close to a "book" load (say within a couple tenths of a grain), and then starting working based on volume. A beam scale can do the same. I don't think the reloading-branded beams scales will be any more precise than a 0.001 gram digital scale, but the will get you close to a starting point just as well. Then ladder your charges based on volume rather than mass. I do that with a Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure which makes it very easy, but there are numerous tools and techniques to measure powder volume with repeatable precision. Of course it also helps to be using a flake powder and not something harder to achieve consistent volume with, such as extruded powders.

The brute force solution is to get a scale with 0.0001 gram precision. It will be laboratory equipment with a draft shield and it will probably cost more than $450 with better ones costing double that. That will measure to 0.0015 grains, but it could be slow and tedious to use.

Nothing about this is true. Your using digital logic for a device with an analog output. The load cell outputs a voltage that is a continuous range, not a set unit. The computer in the scale converts this analog voltage to a digital unit to display on the screen. The load cell output was never in gram or grain units it was just a voltage.

 

[JAG1949]

The Lee Safety Powder Scale can in fact measure to tenths of a grain. Its a Vernier type arrangement and if you bother to read the instructions its easy and accurate to use. I found an economical electronic scale on Amazon. Its about 4" square and maybe 3/4" thick. It will read in ounces, grams or grains. I understand they are very popular with illicit drug peddlers due to their small size and low, under $20, cost. Its too slow to use for normal production but it can be used to double check your main scale results.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I have a 1950’s Redding cast iron balance beam with no damping mechanism. I put tape across the pointer opening to restrict the movement to about -.2 grains and +.1 grains. I weighed thousands of charges on that tricking up to exact weight with charges dropped light from an rcbs uniflow.

I have the old Redding number 1. It has the oil dampening well on it but light oil creeps and every time I fill it I come back later to find it all down the side of the scale and none in the well. It is accurate and has the jeweled bearings but I can see why you put tape on your pointer to limit its travel. Mine is a royal pain to use with out oil in the well but I'm tired of cleaning it up.
If the OP is looking for a Redding scale on ebay don't get a Redding #1 either. There newer scales are much easier to work with.

 

[Biggs300]

I have a US made RCBS 505, another RCBS 505 that, I believe was made in China, and a brand new RCBS M1000 that replaced an older (made in Mexico) RCBS 1010 by RCBS service. The 1010 just would not hold zero for more than 8 or 10 weighings but, it was a joy to use. I fine tuned the foreign made 505, weighted the body of the scale with lead and plaster of paris and it is now as accurate as my US made scale. For me, the 505's are easy to use and I use them more frequently especially when using ball powders. The new M1000 (much like the smaller M500) is also easy to use and is accurate as well. However, due to the beam being further away from the balance mark, it suffers a bit more from parallax needs to be used at eye level or with a USB webcam and tablet or PC. I now use it and my 505's with a webcam when trickling.

As far as digital scales, I have several including a GemPro 250, RCBS 2000 (now a backup) and a RCBS Chargemaster Lite. They are all accurate and seldom drift (at least for now), but the GemPro 250 was replaced under warranty when it began drifting wildly and would no longer calibrate. And, yes, I have too many scales. Regardless of which scale(s) you use, I'd recommend you get a good set of check weights and use them before you begin your reloading process.

 

[FROGO207]

I find that the newer balance scales are on the lighter side and a small bump throws things off. You can get some epoxy and mix it with old bullets/brass or lead shot and fill the voids in the bottom of said scale. This will make it more stable to use. Kind of makes up for using thin pot metal to make the new bases.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I find that the newer balance scales are on the lighter side and a small bump throws things off. You can get some epoxy and mix it with old bullets/brass or lead shot and fill the voids in the bottom of said scale. This will make it more stable to use. Kind of makes up for using thin pot metal to make the new bases.

That's exactly what I did with my Dillon scale. I had a number of lead bullets someone gave me that I really didn't plan to load. I used a large bottle of super glue and carefully stacked them in the inverted base. Let them dry for 24 hours, then lay the next layer. It probably weighs 4 lbs now and is very stable.