sumpnz
Member
mhdishere
Thanks for the correction. I had though non-evil looking long arms were OK there.
Thanks for the correction. I had though non-evil looking long arms were OK there.
Lever-action .357 carbine: a good defensive arm?
- Thread starter P. Plainsman
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Rexrider
Member
Sistema1927
I still have the factory front site. I did have to set the Williams to its lowest possible position (any lower and the set screw is off the edge of the base).
I was getting nervous when I installed it. I co-witnessed the 5D with the stock sight to get a starting point and thought I may need a new front sight. But once I took it out and tried it I found it was okay. Placing the sight at the 6 o'clock on a standard handgun target at 50 yds placed them right in the middle. I was using Remington 125 gr semi-jacketed hollow points (all I had on hand at the time).
I will be getting some heavier rounds to try out next time. Which won't be for a while since it is so damn hot in the Phx area now.
Oh well, that is the price we pay for having 9 to 10 months of great weather. 
I still have the factory front site. I did have to set the Williams to its lowest possible position (any lower and the set screw is off the edge of the base).
I was getting nervous when I installed it. I co-witnessed the 5D with the stock sight to get a starting point and thought I may need a new front sight. But once I took it out and tried it I found it was okay. Placing the sight at the 6 o'clock on a standard handgun target at 50 yds placed them right in the middle. I was using Remington 125 gr semi-jacketed hollow points (all I had on hand at the time).
I will be getting some heavier rounds to try out next time. Which won't be for a while since it is so damn hot in the Phx area now.
Oh well, that is the price we pay for having 9 to 10 months of great weather. 
Sistema1927
Member
Thanks for the info. I guess that I have nothing to lose by taking the 5D off of the 336 and trying it on the 1894.
It isn't quite so hot here (your neighbor to the east), so I might get a chance to try it out tomorrow.
It isn't quite so hot here (your neighbor to the east), so I might get a chance to try it out tomorrow.
JNewell
Member
Just to muddy the waters with facts, American Rifleman had a comparison test a couple of years ago that evaluated speed, accuracy and a weighted combination of both. IIRC (I may not be), bolt guns came out ahead of levers on the combined score and were only slightly behind on speed alone. I'll see if I can dig up the article.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I had no idea there was this much gain in performance. If those figures are accurate, the .357 Magnum out of an 18.5" barrel isn't far behind the 7.62x39 (~123gr@2350) or .30-30, and the .357 allows the use of more aggressively-expanding bullet designs. Interesting.WhiteKnight
Member
How does the .44 Mag compare to those figures?
The only data I've been able to find lists carbine figures of the .44 Mag @ 1650 FPE at the muzzle, with your above data on the .357 trailing @ 1446 FPE.
At +~204 FPE at the muzzle, would the step up to a .44 really make a difference?
The only data I've been able to find lists carbine figures of the .44 Mag @ 1650 FPE at the muzzle, with your above data on the .357 trailing @ 1446 FPE.
At +~204 FPE at the muzzle, would the step up to a .44 really make a difference?
huntsman
Member
get the 357mag then to fill out the battery get a 30/30. This should cover most needs and not break the bank to shoot or purchase.
I have a 1894cs with a Williams Foolproof. it's a great combo. I live in earthquake country in a super liberal county. Appearance is a matter of great importance in a court room. You would be foolish to sit in front of a local jury that hates guns and flaunt an AR. In a system where your appearance, your demeanor, your accent, your income, your race and your necktie all make a difference, the appearance of your rifle is a big factor. If you doubt this, you do not understand how incredibly shallow a liberal jury can become.
California is a land of illusions. We promote these illusions as a matter of identity. One of the illusions is equal treatment for minorities. Another is a fair and open minded analysis by a jury.
The Marlin 1894cs is an excellent self defense carbine that can be utilized effectively by any member of the household.
California is a land of illusions. We promote these illusions as a matter of identity. One of the illusions is equal treatment for minorities. Another is a fair and open minded analysis by a jury.
The Marlin 1894cs is an excellent self defense carbine that can be utilized effectively by any member of the household.
106rr - It would indeed be foolish to "flaunt" an AR in a state where they are not legal to own. Who suggested anything to the contrary?
I don't know if the rest of your comments were directed to me, but I have spent a lot of time in court as an expert witness, before both judge and jury. My point is that if someone thinks a lever gun is a ticket to acquittal or a no bill based on its appearance, they are the ones who don't understand the legal system. And no one can seem to provide one bit of evidence that lever guns are more legally benign than any other firearm if used in self defense.
I don't know if the rest of your comments were directed to me, but I have spent a lot of time in court as an expert witness, before both judge and jury. My point is that if someone thinks a lever gun is a ticket to acquittal or a no bill based on its appearance, they are the ones who don't understand the legal system. And no one can seem to provide one bit of evidence that lever guns are more legally benign than any other firearm if used in self defense.
mrstang01
Member
I'd suggest anyone looking at a .357 rifle check out leverguns.com and see what Paco Kelly has to say about them. Paco made a believer out of me, the .357 out of a rifile is a totally different beast.
treeprof;
Not written for you in any way -- perhaps you should re read the post.
Mike
To All;
I second the suggestion that people read the work of Paco Kelly. I also suggest a search under the name Terry Murbach (knows a lot about ammo) on several boards for another opinion on 357 mag carbines.
Good Luck
Edited July 24
Thanks to Brian Williams for the tip -- edited to correct the spelling of Terry Murbach's last name. My apologies to the members who tried the search under the wrong name.
Not written for you in any way -- perhaps you should re read the post.
Mike
To All;
I second the suggestion that people read the work of Paco Kelly. I also suggest a search under the name Terry Murbach (knows a lot about ammo) on several boards for another opinion on 357 mag carbines.
Good Luck
Edited July 24
Thanks to Brian Williams for the tip -- edited to correct the spelling of Terry Murbach's last name. My apologies to the members who tried the search under the wrong name.
Last edited:
B27
Member
Nice combination of the old and the new-
The only long guns I get more fun out of are some .22 rimfires.
The only long guns I get more fun out of are some .22 rimfires.
Tony Mig
Member
Can't comment on the Marlin 1894, but I do have a Winchester 1894 Trails End edition in .357 magnum, and I love it. I had a Springfield M1A as my main plinking / SHTF long gun, and I traded it in on a three gun deal that got me this Winchester '94. The M1A was expensive to feed mil-surp 7.62mm NATO, and it was a heavy gun to lug around. I already reload .38's & .357 magnums for the GP-100 and the S&W 686 I have, so the expense of the ammo isn't an issue with the '94.
Lever guns...(at least for me)...are more fun to shoot, and this '94 puts 158 grain RNFP bullets 100 yards down range with excellent accuracy using the stock iron sights.
A note about self defense and a rifle......
You are more likely to find yourself in an SD situation where a handgun will be your defensive firearm, than a long gun. The people you're most likely to engage in a fire fight will most likely be using a handgun. Should you be so lucky as to have a '94 lever gun in your hands at the time a fire fight breaks out, then you'll most likely have the advantage over your advesary who will likely have a 9mm Glock and be under the influence of either alcohol or narcotics.
Should this international terrorist problem grow to the point that the average Joe Citizen be called into State Militia duty, I would not feel out gunned standing gaurd over out shores armed with my Winchester '94, and a .357 magnum wheel gun on my bel, cause it's not how many bullets you can pack into a single gun, but how well you place the bullets your gun holds that really matters. Marksmanship is everything...!
Lever guns...(at least for me)...are more fun to shoot, and this '94 puts 158 grain RNFP bullets 100 yards down range with excellent accuracy using the stock iron sights.
A note about self defense and a rifle......
You are more likely to find yourself in an SD situation where a handgun will be your defensive firearm, than a long gun. The people you're most likely to engage in a fire fight will most likely be using a handgun. Should you be so lucky as to have a '94 lever gun in your hands at the time a fire fight breaks out, then you'll most likely have the advantage over your advesary who will likely have a 9mm Glock and be under the influence of either alcohol or narcotics.
Should this international terrorist problem grow to the point that the average Joe Citizen be called into State Militia duty, I would not feel out gunned standing gaurd over out shores armed with my Winchester '94, and a .357 magnum wheel gun on my bel, cause it's not how many bullets you can pack into a single gun, but how well you place the bullets your gun holds that really matters. Marksmanship is everything...!
Dave Markowitz
Member
A .357 levergun is an excellent, versatile longarm, well-suited for defense. I have an EMF/Rossi M1892 Short Rifle which is a real blast to shoot (literally). Recoil is mild, and as other posters have pointed out, the .357 Magnum gets a lot more gas from a rifle length tube.
<rant>
One point I disagree with is the supposedly PC nature of a lever action rifle. IMNSHO, the idea that any firearm is PC is ludicrous. The blissninnies don't want you to have any guns. To them, all guns are bad. And any competent lawyer who's got it in for you can twist things to make it look like your choice of a "cowboy" gun was bad.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant used this powerful rifle, just like the guns used by notorious outlaws like Jesse James, to gun down the poor victim."
</rant>
<rant>
One point I disagree with is the supposedly PC nature of a lever action rifle. IMNSHO, the idea that any firearm is PC is ludicrous. The blissninnies don't want you to have any guns. To them, all guns are bad. And any competent lawyer who's got it in for you can twist things to make it look like your choice of a "cowboy" gun was bad.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant used this powerful rifle, just like the guns used by notorious outlaws like Jesse James, to gun down the poor victim."
</rant>
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
Thats Terry Murbach.
pauli
Member
only thing to worry about is overpenetration... you've got a lot of energy in a very fast, small package here.
other than that, a lever action 357 carbine is an ideal home defense gun. nine or so very powerful rounds that can be fired rapidly if needbe, in all sorts of bullet designs, with the option of cheaper practice rounds to keep your skills up, all while maintaing commonality with a sidearm. what more could you want?
other than that, a lever action 357 carbine is an ideal home defense gun. nine or so very powerful rounds that can be fired rapidly if needbe, in all sorts of bullet designs, with the option of cheaper practice rounds to keep your skills up, all while maintaing commonality with a sidearm. what more could you want?
russlate
Member
< "What more could you want?... " >
One to shoot, one for a spare, and one in the shop. Alternately, one for the house, one for the car, and one for the office.
Nest question?
One to shoot, one for a spare, and one in the shop. Alternately, one for the house, one for the car, and one for the office.
Nest question?
The only down side (or up side depending on viewpoint) is that buying the 1894C just
The .357 Marlin is one of the best purchases I ever made. This is an extremely fun gun to shoot. Recoil, even with .357 Mags is almost non existant. 158gr Horn XTPs do a job on ground squirrels -- they would make someone, or something very unhappy. In fact it was so much fun, I just had to add an 1895 CB in 45-70. The slim stock/foreend, and the 26" octogon barrel is just plain sexy. I just added it to the stable the other day, and have only shot 400gr Cast Flat points at around 1,300 fps -- it's a blast! Now, if I could only find the exact same rifle in 30-30 (1895 CB), I would be a happy camper.
The .357 Marlin is one of the best purchases I ever made. This is an extremely fun gun to shoot. Recoil, even with .357 Mags is almost non existant. 158gr Horn XTPs do a job on ground squirrels -- they would make someone, or something very unhappy. In fact it was so much fun, I just had to add an 1895 CB in 45-70. The slim stock/foreend, and the 26" octogon barrel is just plain sexy. I just added it to the stable the other day, and have only shot 400gr Cast Flat points at around 1,300 fps -- it's a blast! Now, if I could only find the exact same rifle in 30-30 (1895 CB), I would be a happy camper.
jeff-10
Member
Anyone know at what rifle barrel length you will stop seeing velocity gains for the average 357 and 44 magnum factory ammunition? By average I mean the stuff that isn't specifcly loaded for rifle lenght barrels. Thx.
P. Plainsman
Member
Folks, I'm going to get the Marlin. This discussion has been great.
About ammo. I assume commercial jacketed hollowpoints and FMJs in .357 and .38 will pose no problem in the 1894. But I was browsing the Midway USA catalog, and noticed that Black Hills offers a "Cowboy" .38 Special round at a moderate price. Seems like that could be a fun and appropriate plinker.
However, these Cowboy cartridges feature plain, lead conical-nose bullets. Would they leave an annoying amount of fouling in my nice new carbine?
This discussion has been great.About ammo. I assume commercial jacketed hollowpoints and FMJs in .357 and .38 will pose no problem in the 1894. But I was browsing the Midway USA catalog, and noticed that Black Hills offers a "Cowboy" .38 Special round at a moderate price. Seems like that could be a fun and appropriate plinker.
However, these Cowboy cartridges feature plain, lead conical-nose bullets. Would they leave an annoying amount of fouling in my nice new carbine?
Nathanael_Greene
Member
Excellent! You'll never regret it.
P. Plainsman:
You've made an excellent choice. Be aware that different ammo may result in a different point of impact on your target, especially with differing bullet weights. A good option is to use practice ammo that is the same bullet weight as ammo you will use for other things, whether hunting or defense. I almost always shoot 158 gr soft point ammo in my 1894C. It costs a bit more than FMJ practice ammo but still isn't all that expensive and meets just about all of my needs. Feel free to use the ammo of your choosing of course, but you might have to adjust your elevation when moving between target or plinking ammo and the stuff you use for more serious purposes.
You've made an excellent choice. Be aware that different ammo may result in a different point of impact on your target, especially with differing bullet weights. A good option is to use practice ammo that is the same bullet weight as ammo you will use for other things, whether hunting or defense. I almost always shoot 158 gr soft point ammo in my 1894C. It costs a bit more than FMJ practice ammo but still isn't all that expensive and meets just about all of my needs. Feel free to use the ammo of your choosing of course, but you might have to adjust your elevation when moving between target or plinking ammo and the stuff you use for more serious purposes.
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