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Lever-Action Elephant Gun
- Thread starter Pigoutultra
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451 Detonics
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And probably more wounded and lost to die later....be a responsible hunter means using enough gun to make suffering minimal.
Sheepdog1968
Member
If you go out to Jim Brockman's website (he does lever action mods), you will find links to a hunter who has hunted the Big "6" with a lever action 45-70 that Jim made up for him.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The Big Horn .500's are really nice looking rifles!!!
25cschaefer
Member
I've seen video of the great Fred Bear killing an elephant in its tracks with a recurve bow. Ear holes are soft.
iirc, the Browning/Win 1886 can be chambered in .50-110. Seems like you could get something around 500 grains going about 2000 fps fairly easily with smokeless powder.
Alternately, .458 caliber straight walled case of about 3" might work in that action. 400 grain bullet @ >2100 fps would probably be within the means of an 1886, since I know there are loads that will launch a 400 grain bullet from a .45-70 at almost 2000 fps safely from those guns chambered in that round.
Alternately, .458 caliber straight walled case of about 3" might work in that action. 400 grain bullet @ >2100 fps would probably be within the means of an 1886, since I know there are loads that will launch a 400 grain bullet from a .45-70 at almost 2000 fps safely from those guns chambered in that round.
earlthegoat2
Member
Straight walled cartridges with near parallel geometry that produce tremondous pressure just do not extract reliably on a regular basis in a variety of climates. Cases stick and design of rifles extraction methods and design of slender tapering cartridges with full rims for the large extractor of a double rifle to grip will make a rifle that, though only having two shots, will have as reliable of two shots (and empty case extraction) as is possible to design into a rifle.
To make an African lever gun you would have to redesign the cartridge is carried first. Yes hot 45-70s and 450s and the wildcats can kill elephant and stop a cape buffalo with a shot to the boss but the overall package of the rifle and cartridge would need drastic overhaul.
Leverguns are fine in a climate like Alaska where temperatures are not likely to cause expansion problems in brass and steel which can exacerbate extraction issues.
As has been said already this disscussion is somewhat moot as the market is not there and fast followup shots are not so important with a PH over your shoulder.
To make an African lever gun you would have to redesign the cartridge is carried first. Yes hot 45-70s and 450s and the wildcats can kill elephant and stop a cape buffalo with a shot to the boss but the overall package of the rifle and cartridge would need drastic overhaul.
Leverguns are fine in a climate like Alaska where temperatures are not likely to cause expansion problems in brass and steel which can exacerbate extraction issues.
As has been said already this disscussion is somewhat moot as the market is not there and fast followup shots are not so important with a PH over your shoulder.
Pigoutultra
Member
Excellent points everyone. A lever-action that is suitable for africa would almost certainly need a new cartridge with a large case capacity to reduce pressure problems. To get a cartridge with the power of a .458 Lott to fit in a lever-action would be quite the project, one that is unlikely to happen any time soon.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
There are probably legal issues to deal with as well. My understanding is that some of the laws of African countries allow only double rifles or bolt guns, though I haven't done any serious research on the subject.
Pigoutultra
Member
IIRC, I read somewhere that some people brought single-shot rugers on a safari and had no problems, though I think it was just plains hunting they were doing. For the big five I thought it was only restrictions on the cartridges that you could use. Correct me if I'm wrong.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Leverguns.com does a levergun hunt to South Africa every year.
There's at least a couple of misconceptions running through this thread.
One is that the elephant guns use high pressure cartridges. Not so, the 470NE is high energy and high recoil, but not especially high pressure.
Another is that safari hunters take one shot and let the PH back them up. They don't, ask H&Hhunter. He routinely fires both barrels of his double rifle when hunting dangerous game (sounds like an IPSC double tap, only louder). He can place both shots within 6" or less of each other at 25 yards, I've seen him do it.
One is that the elephant guns use high pressure cartridges. Not so, the 470NE is high energy and high recoil, but not especially high pressure.
Another is that safari hunters take one shot and let the PH back them up. They don't, ask H&Hhunter. He routinely fires both barrels of his double rifle when hunting dangerous game (sounds like an IPSC double tap, only louder). He can place both shots within 6" or less of each other at 25 yards, I've seen him do it.
memphisjim
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the 500 s&w mag outta do it considering the handgun did
Pigoutultra
Member
The .500 S&W Magnum was never intended for use on elephants and I would never use one as a primary weapon if I ever were to go on a safari. The bullets just don't have the sectional density needed to reliably penetrate an elephants skull.
I believe H&Hhunter has said it before, the time it takes to rack a bolt or run a lever is just too long. If there really were any advantage to having a lever gun chambered in something powerful enough to safely take an Elephant I would tend to think we'd have seen it by now.
And yes I know what Bell did and what he used to do it.
And yes I know what Bell did and what he used to do it.
+1000
I don't know if they'd even allow you to bring a handgun on safari.
If you look at the Linebaugh penetration tests from a few years back, you'll see that a couple of .500 S&W bullets only made it to 40" in wetpack penetration. "Classic" elephant calibers like the .505 (Barnes, not Gibbs) and .600 NE routinely go through all 56" of the penetration medium.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp
Pigoutultra
Member
In order for a .50 caliber bullet to have the sectional density needed for elephant hunting, it would have to weigh over 550 grains. With bullets that heavy I doubt you will get much more than a broken wrist/tendinitis and velocity in the triple digits.
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First off if you give Dave Clay of DRC down in Refro Texas a call he'll build you a .458 Lott powered lever gun based on a 50-110 necked down to .45 cal. It pushes a 500 gr bullet up there around 2250 to 2300 FPS out of a modified 1886 lever gun. And it weighs about the same if not slightly more than my .470 NE double gun. So what you get with a DG capable lever gun is cool factor. Because it's heavy it's bulky and it's complicated and prone to several different types of failures that good solid Mauser action or a double isn't prone to.
A good man with a bolt gun or a lever gun can work it fast enough to blow your mind. And they are still slower on the first two shots than a double gun period end of story BUT that is only true if the double gun man has done some training too. Nothing comes for free in the world of operating your chosen firearm platform.
The .45-70 with any load will not reliably penetrate to the brain on a frontal shot on a bull elephant and since most elephant charge from the front end first that kind of puts it out of the running for an elephant gun. Oh and there is that little problem of it not making the FPE requirement to be used on thick skinned DG in 90% of the countries that allow the hunting of elephant.
Somebody mentioned that to stop a buffalo you shoot it in the boss. You'd better not if you don't want to be stomped into a red muddy smear. The brain lies below WELL below the boss. The times I've been charged I've found a bullet right under the chin works best breaking the neck. The head is just to unreliable a target on a bobbing, weaving fast moving animal. Amazingly enough they don't run at you with their heads held stationary.
Last don't EVER count on your PH to stop an animal for you. I'd be dead or at least have some nice scars to show and some new hardware in my bones if I'd have counted on that on at least one occasion. Once in Tanzania MY PH informed me right before I took my shot not to screw up because his rifle was misfiring on a pretty regular basis. And that is not horribly uncommon. Use the most gun you can shoot well.
A good man with a bolt gun or a lever gun can work it fast enough to blow your mind. And they are still slower on the first two shots than a double gun period end of story BUT that is only true if the double gun man has done some training too. Nothing comes for free in the world of operating your chosen firearm platform.
The .45-70 with any load will not reliably penetrate to the brain on a frontal shot on a bull elephant and since most elephant charge from the front end first that kind of puts it out of the running for an elephant gun. Oh and there is that little problem of it not making the FPE requirement to be used on thick skinned DG in 90% of the countries that allow the hunting of elephant.
Somebody mentioned that to stop a buffalo you shoot it in the boss. You'd better not if you don't want to be stomped into a red muddy smear. The brain lies below WELL below the boss. The times I've been charged I've found a bullet right under the chin works best breaking the neck. The head is just to unreliable a target on a bobbing, weaving fast moving animal. Amazingly enough they don't run at you with their heads held stationary.
Last don't EVER count on your PH to stop an animal for you. I'd be dead or at least have some nice scars to show and some new hardware in my bones if I'd have counted on that on at least one occasion. Once in Tanzania MY PH informed me right before I took my shot not to screw up because his rifle was misfiring on a pretty regular basis. And that is not horribly uncommon. Use the most gun you can shoot well.
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Maverick223
Member
I have to agree, my Browning copy (chambered for the venerable olde '06...for the moment) handles nicely compared to my .375H&H Mauser, much less a heavier .458cal+ monster. That said, it doesn't meet my requirements for an African DG rifle (in any chambering).CraigC said:
Ding, ding, ding! Very little taper + hot loads + hot temperatures + high humidity does not yield a good day. For this reason i'll let others prove the effectiveness of a big bore lever rifle on African lg. DG while I stick to a classic Mauser chambered for a big ole cartridge with a taper like a traffic cone.earlthegoat2 said:
BTW, it would behoove one to listen to the guy above, I think he knows a mite about the matters of which he speaks. He is the first guy that i'd turn to (and have in the past).
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I agree and really don't know where it comes from. Must be just pure ignorance but you hear it all the time. More internet lore.
People do it all the time. Gary Reeder takes a group to Africa every year. Granted, most of them only hunt plains game. Google Ross Seyfriend and his forty-fived Cape buffalo.
The .500S&W is plenty of cartridge for Africa, if the hunter is up to it. Not necessarily for elephant but certainly for everything else. All of the Big Six were taken cleanly with handguns long before the advent of even the Linebaugh cartridges, let alone the .500S&W.
Pigoutultra
Member
Are you talking about howda pistols or something more modern?
HorseSoldier
Member
I mentioned that they have professional hunters standing by to backstop them if their shots fail to stop -- saying that anyone claimed the PH finishes the fight for them is just a straw man.
And my point in bringing that up is that regardless of what percentage of the time it's done, it creates a different operational environment for safari rifles and influences what works and doesn't work in a safari rifle.
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