Lever-Action Elephant Gun

[H&Hhunter]

And my point in bringing that up is that regardless of what percentage of the time it's done, it creates a different operational environment for safari rifles and influences what works and doesn't work in a safari rifle.

So what should the PH carry? Or in my case I am a member of the South African Hunters Association which allows me to hunt without a PH so what should I carry? There is absolutely no difference in hunting Africa than there is in hunting anywhere else that has animals that can kill you. Your weapon needs to be capable of handling any situation that you might need to sort out. Both from a power standpoint and a reliability standpoint.

People do it all the time. Gary Reeder takes a group to Africa every year. Granted, most of them only hunt plains game. Google Ross Seyfriend and his forty-fived Cape buffalo.

When you refer to "Africa" where are you speaking of? There are only a very few countries that allow handgun hunting. And none of the handgun cartridges are "plenty" of gun for DG there are a few that are just barely adequate under very special circumstances for the big stuff. In fact hunting elephant with a handgun any handgun including the big .50 cals is nothing more than a stupid human trick.

 

[sschudalla]

Agree with HorseSoldier. Manufacturing physical metallurgy and real clean steel didnt get decent until post WWII and then its plateau until the mid 80's. Long after the idea of hunting elephants was no longer PC. Then again, who cares!?

 

[CraigC]

Are you talking about howda pistols or something more modern?

No, the .44Mag in Rugers and the .375JDJ were used heavily in the `80's and `90's before the .475Linebaugh gained much of a following and before T/C introduced the Encore. We now have much better bullets for all the revolver cartridges.

In fact hunting elephant with a handgun any handgun including the big .50 cals is nothing more than a stupid human trick.

Have you actually done any or witnessed any or are you just another rifle hunter who thinks handguns are nothing more than pop guns? I ask as a serious question with no disrespect intended. There are a lot of experienced, knowledgeable and well intending rifle hunters who have absolutely no respect for handguns and quite frankly, don't know what they're talking about. No matter how many handgun hunters prove them wrong every single year for about the last 30yrs.

When you refer to "Africa" where are you speaking of?

It's been several years since I booked my ill-fated hunt so my information is that old. Mine was headed to South Africa with the Leverguns.com crowd and handguns were going to be in tow, albeit not as primary hunting arms.

And none of the handgun cartridges are "plenty" of gun for DG there are a few that are just barely adequate under very special circumstances for the big stuff. In fact hunting elephant with a handgun any handgun including the big .50 cals is nothing more than a stupid human trick.

You might ought to read the post you're quoting a little more carefully. I never said that any handgun cartridge was "plenty for dangerous game". I said plenty for Africa, responding to the earlier post questioning whether or not you could even hunt Africa with handguns.

 

[T.R.]

The American writer, Sam Fadala, has a Professional Hunter License in South Africa, Namibia, and Mozambique. He totes a Marlin 45-70 as back up for his clients. Sam prefers custom Garrett Ammo and has taken hippos, cape buffalo, and other animals with this rifle.

Interestingly, he is also a huge fan of the 30-06 for most African game. No, Sam is not an old fogey with narrow mind. Sam tests many rifle cartridges and bullets - he knows what works well.

Sam Fadala wrote a very good book about the 30-30 PO Ackley Improved cartridge and Winchester 94 rifles back in the '90s. His safe hand loads rival velocities of 300 Savage! One of his current projects involves the forgotten 32 Special cartridge.

TR

 

[Ridgerunner665]

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,85849.0.html

The guy that did that is for real....lots of time and money invested, and he succeeded.

A hint: 444 Marlin (lengthened COAL to 2.750"), 400 grain bullet @ 2,160 fps (equal to 450-400 NE and 404 Jeffrey)

 

[H&Hhunter]

You might ought to read the post you're quoting a little more carefully. I never said that any handgun cartridge was "plenty for dangerous game". I said plenty for Africa, responding to the earlier post questioning whether or not you could even hunt Africa with handguns.

Which is specifically why I added the reference to dangerous game and I should have added thick skinned DG in particular. Thanks for the clarification, my reference was poorly written.

Obviously there are handgun rounds that are adequate for American game these same rounds will be quite effective on African plains game. Handgun hunting is becoming a real PIA in most of Africa now days. South Africa is possible but not as easy as it used to be BTW.

Mine was headed to South Africa with the Leverguns.com crowd and handguns were going to be in tow, albeit not as primary hunting arms.

This is absolutely forbidden in South Africa since the passage of the updated firearms control act that was passed several years ago. You can get a handgun in but only as a primary hunting weapon. It used to be allowed to bring in your handgun for personal protection and wear it as needed. Not anymore. It takes a pre approval to bring a handgun in and if it can be in anyway imagined that it can be used for personal protection instead of purely hunting you are not going to be approved.

 

[CraigC]

A hint: 444 Marlin (lengthened COAL to 2.750"), 400 grain bullet @ 2,160 fps (equal to 450-400 NE and 404 Jeffrey)

Same TKO as the vaunted 400gr .45/70 but with considerably higher sectional density. A very potent combination. Very similar to the 400gr .405 or .450/.400 load.

 

[McCall911]

The guy that did that is for real....lots of time and money invested, and he succeeded.

A hint: 444 Marlin (lengthened COAL to 2.750"), 400 grain bullet @ 2,160 fps (equal to 450-400 NE and 404 Jeffrey)

Yes, I was talking to "Flat Top" about his development a few days ago in another forum. He didn't go into as much detail as he did in the Marlin forum. Glad you pointed that out.

It's rumored that Marlin may be poised to drop the .444 from its lever action lineup after all these years. I hope it's not true! That was my first exposure to a big bore when I was young.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

never been there and probably will never be able to afford to go and if i did i surely couldnt afford to hunt elephant. But if i did i surely wouldnt feel undergunned with a 4570 or 50ak using punch bullets. One thing that isnt allways kept in mind is you dont need a stopping rifle to hunt dangerous game. That is the job of your ph. I would guess that one of the biggest problems phs run into is keyboard commandos that show up with a big stopping rifle and arent even close to being competant with it. Ive seen what kind of penetation a 4570 and 50ak will give with punch bullets and ive seen the outpenetrate factory 458 loads that 10 years ago were considered state of the art for elephant hunting. As to reliablility. Sure you can argue that a bolt is more relibable but ive shot enough lever guns to know they to are reliable and ive also had bolt guns that would occasionaly choke. When a post like this comes up you get a few so called experts that will bash the leverguns but id bet a dime to a dollar that if they really took the time to see what a properly tuned lever gun with properly loaded ammo can really do theyd change there tune. Then you have the snobs that dress in fruity safari clothes and think they can buy there way to being a good rifleman because they can afford some exotic gun.

 

[natman]

One thing that isnt allways kept in mind is you dont need a stopping rifle to hunt dangerous game. That is the job of your ph.

I've seen a lot of variations on this theme. It's a bad attitude to have. It's like being a trapeze artist and thinking "I don't need to concentrate, the safety net will catch me.".

Don't hunt dangerous game unless you have a rifle that can deal with stopping a charge AND are both mentally and physically competent to handle it. If you think a proper DG rifle kicks too much, is too expensive, too heavy, etc. then take up another hobby.

I would guess that one of the biggest problems phs run into is keyboard commandos that show up with a big stopping rifle and arent even close to being competant with it.

The other would be people who think it's OK shoot once and then let the PH handle it.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Just an FYI.

Hunting cull or non trophy elephant is cheaper by a large margin than hunting buffalo. And one more thing. The .45-70 doesn't make the FPE requirements to be legal for dangerous game in any country that I am aware of.

I'm not saying that it isn't used or that it won't work but it's technically illegal.

If you have any rifle that will occasionally "choke" you don't bring it for dangerous game. Fruity safari clothes or not. Of course if you do get killed wearing fruity safari clothes always makes for a better you tube video.

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Just an FYI.

Hunting cull or non trophy elephant is cheaper by a large margin than hunting buffalo. And one more thing. The .45-70 doesn't make the FPE requirements to be legal for dangerous game in any country that I am aware of.

I'm not saying that it isn't used or that it won't work but it's technically illegal.

If you have any rifle that will occasionally "choke" you don't bring it for dangerous game. Fruity safari clothes or not. Of course if you do get killed wearing fruity safari clothes always makes for a better you tube video.

Wonder how many were arrested for using spears? Or bow and arrows for that matter. Why is it that T.R.'s group could use whatever they brought, and did an outstanding job with, but now these are considered too small. Just like the .30-30 is too small for deer.

 

[Robert]

Considering H&Hhunter has been on more DG hunts then just about everyone else on this forum combined I tend to take his word very seriously. The man has been there, done that and has the knowledge to prove it. Ignore or deride him all you like, it will be your loss.

Then you have the snobs that dress in fruity safari clothes and think they can buy there way to being a good rifleman because they can afford some exotic gun.

H&Hhunter is no snob. One of the nicest people you will ever meet. And he can shoot faster and more accuratly with his 470NE than most people with a pistol. Again ignore or deride him all you want. But lets not call names or call his fashion into question.

Just for grins how many people in here have actually been on a DG hunt in any African country? And if so how many times?

 

[Justin]

Wonder how many were arrested for using spears? Or bow and arrows for that matter. Why is it that T.R.'s group could use whatever they brought, and did an outstanding job with, but now these are considered too small.

Well, Teddy Roosevelt did his hunting in the early part of the 20th century. Last time I checked, we live in the 21st century, and like it or not, these countries have specific laws regarding what cartridges can and cannot be used to hunt dangerous game.

If South Africa or any other country says "You can't use XYZ cartridge to hunt", well, guess what? You're not using that cartridge to hunt, even if it drops an elephant dead in its tracks every single time, and based on what H&H Hunter has said, (and remember, he's actually been to Africa and actually shot real DG with real bullets), those cartridges are considered inadequate.

That said, when the guy who's actually been to Africa not once, but multiple times lays out his experience, I'm going to listen because he's actually acquired the proverbial t-shirt that comes with being there and doing that.

 

[earlthegoat2]

That said, when the guy who's actually been to Africa not once, but multiple times lays out his experience, I'm going to listen because he's actually acquired the proverbial t-shirt that comes with being there and doing that.

I believe this applies to H&H Hunter and yeah what he said.

Precious few of us have been to Africa to hunt and even fewer the game there that bites back. I have been to Africa myself but not to hunt. I did have the privledge of looking over a PH's personal "working" rifle collection.

A more spartan collection of rifles I had never seen. There were few. Only a dozen. A 470 double, a 500 double that was shared with the son who was also a PH, a 375 Bolt, a very nice vintage Lee Speed 303, a rifle marked .275 made by Rigby (7x57) and a 22. None had scopes and all had the look of hard use. They were all old. Some made as early as the turn of the 20th century.

Though the Lee Speed was probably never used it still was included in the collection of working rifles as it was the first centerfire this PH ever received.

 

[Justin]

I believe this applies to H&H Hunter and yeah what he said.

Yes. I was referring to H&H Hunter in that statement.

 

[Maverick223]

Just an FYI.

Hunting cull or non trophy elephant is cheaper by a large margin than hunting buffalo. And one more thing. The .45-70 doesn't make the FPE requirements to be legal for dangerous game in any country that I am aware of.

That is interesting, on average how much would such a hunt cost?

Also, as an aside, does South Africa (or anywhere else) allow you to use a wildcat cartridge that meets their specifications. I doubt that I will be able to book such a hunt (and have little interest in plains game), but if I did I am working on my own cartridge (which I designed more for Am. Buff. than anything else). FWIW, it should turn out to be roughly equivalent to the .450NE-No.2. Being chambered in a falling block, I don't know that i'd use it (doubt that i'd use the trusty .375H&H either), but it would be nice to know that I can.

 

[CraigC]

Hey, you can bet that if I ever do get to follow through with an African safari, I will be wearing fruity safari clothes! Drives me nuts to see these guys on hunting shows showing up in RealTree.

Don't hunt dangerous game unless you have a rifle that can deal with stopping a charge AND are both mentally and physically competent to handle it. If you think a proper DG rifle kicks too much, is too expensive, too heavy, etc. then take up another hobby.

I can tell you right now that Mr. Lloyd Smale has probably done more shooting with big bores and is more proficient with them than most anyone else on this forum. If you think you're talking to a keyboard commando, think again. Maybe you should ask about those Punch bullets and the testing that was done where they outpenetrated .458's?

id bet a dime to a dollar that if they really took the time to see what a properly tuned lever gun with properly loaded ammo can really do theyd change there tune.

I agree. IMHO, the biggest thing standing in the way of us seeing more big bore leverguns used in Africa is common perception. Particularly among those who have been there, done that and think the old way is the only way.

 

[natman]

Quote:
Don't hunt dangerous game unless you have a rifle that can deal with stopping a charge AND are both mentally and physically competent to handle it. If you think a proper DG rifle kicks too much, is too expensive, too heavy, etc. then take up another hobby.

I can tell you right now that Mr. Lloyd Smale has probably done more shooting with big bores and is more proficient with them than most anyone else on this forum. If you think you're talking to a keyboard commando, think again. Maybe you should ask about those Punch bullets and the testing that was done where they outpenetrated .458's?

My quote was not addressed at Mr Smale personally. The "you" is intended in the general sense. Saying "one" sounded silly. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I disagree with his comment that it's OK to use an inadequate gun for dangerous game because your PH will back you up. That's the extent of it. I don't think he's a "keyboard commando" nor did I say anything that could be reasonably be construed that way. As far as I'm concerned, his personal experience is not at issue.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Why is it that T.R.'s group could use whatever they brought, and did an outstanding job with, but now these are considered too small. Just like the .30-30 is too small for deer.

OTH,

That's a good question and one worth answering. The reason that caliber restrictions and minimum FPE rules were put into place was due to a spat of deaths in the field in which hunters were using small bore rifles on large DG critters.

The British authorities at the time were getting sick and tired of sending well heeled gentlemen back to England in pine boxes. Look up the reference to one Lord Grey or maybe he was an Earl who got swatted while hunting lions with a .280 Ross and a 140 gr Soft Point bullet. After shooting the lion in it retreated into the long grass our Brave Lord Grey went after it and was charged he dumped a magazines worth of bullets into the beast none of which penetrated through the chest muscles. Poor old Lord Grey got the chop and as far as I can tell that was the final straw. Immediately after Kenya started requiring a .40 cal or better and everywhere else went with a .375 Minimum most German colonies went with the 9.3 as a minimum for DG. Most also require a minimum of 4,000 FPE as well you see in the day .375 assumed an H&H rimmed or belted magnum. It was shortly there after that the colonies started requiring White Hunters (PH's) to accompany non resident hunters as well.

You asked and that is the short answer.

Maybe you should ask about those Punch bullets and the testing that was done where they outpenetrated .458's?

Craig,

How do Punch bullets penetrate when you load them in a .458 WM which will push them approximately 400 to 500 FPS faster than a 45-70?

never been there and probably will never be able to afford to go and if i did i surely couldnt afford to hunt elephant. But if i did i surely wouldnt feel undergunned with a 4570 or 50ak using punch bullets. One thing that isnt allways kept in mind is you dont need a stopping rifle to hunt dangerous game. That is the job of your ph. I would guess that one of the biggest problems phs run into is keyboard commandos that show up with a big stopping rifle and arent even close to being competant with it.

Lloyd,

With all due respect, You've never been there you are never planning to go but that doesn't stop you from handing out advice about a subject you've never actually done like you're an old pro? And then you go screaming internet commando about the other guy?

You think that your PH is always going to be there pull your behind out of the fire? Sorry it doesn't always work that way. With that said I agree with you that you don't need a "stopping" rifle to hunt DG but you do need one that you are capable of shooting very well and is legal and is capable of killing anything in the area in which you are hunting.

I've shot the .50 AK and the .45-70 extensively with various hot loads such as Buffalo Bore and Garret stuff out of both. I've killed a pile of hogs with my .45-70 using the hot stuff. A light weight Marlin is WAY less pleasant to shoot with those monster loads in it than a properly weighted and well fit .375, .416, .404, .470 ETC. Now if you want to get into the really hot stuff like a .450 Rigby, .460 Weatherby, or any of the big .50's then I agree that the Marlins are less brutal to shoot but I'd rather spend the day busting rocks with a 10LB .470 that a 7 Lb Marlin with rank loads any day.

So besides magazine capacity I'm still not getting what you are gaining from your Marlin over a good bolt gun. It's slightly faster handling and it carries more bullets. If you just want to hunt with one then by all means grab you .50 AK and let er rip that one is way legal.

 

[McCall911]

Considering H&Hhunter has been on more DG hunts then just about everyone else on this forum combined I tend to take his word very seriously. The man has been there, done that and has the knowledge to prove it. Ignore or deride him all you like, it will be your loss.

+1
H&H is our go-to African hunter here at THR.

[So besides magazine capacity I'm still not getting what you are gaining from your Marlin over a good bolt gun.

The short answer is that it's upgrading. The .444 Marlin was originally known as a "brush" cartridge for deer with the capability of taking some larger game. The newer development takes the old .444 to another level altogether. I'm also aware that some mods to the stock would have to be made to help the recoil be more tolerable.

Like I said, the new .444 development might not be the ticket for elephant but I could see where it could be ballistically up to the task of the .404 or the .450/.400. I'd like to see some testing of it first before I jump to any conclusions, however.

 

[H&Hhunter]

That is interesting, on average how much would such a hunt cost?

Mav,

You can do a late season tuskless or a PAC bull or cow for like 8k all in.

Like I said, the new .444 development might not be the ticket for elephant but I could see where it could be ballistically up to the task of the .404 or the .450/.400. I'd like to see some testing of it first before I jump to any conclusions, however.

MC911,

It is amazing what's been done with the good old lever gun in the last decade. I've got a really cool customized DRC 1895 CB from DRC and I love it. Except that with Buffalo Bore loads it smacks the crude out of my fingers on my shooting hand. I need to try a large loop lever maybe.

Of course to be fair the old "African" especially the .404 Jeff have been upgrading too. In a modern action I regularly push 400 gr bullets out of my .404 at 2400 FPS which makes it more of a gun than the original .416 Rigby. And if you like you can push them faster than that. And of course you can ear back on the .416 Rigby now days so that it resembles a .416 Roy.

Powder technology and as has been mentioned metallurgy has come a long way. Heck a modern built double is capable of pushing bullets WAY faster than an old time British double is you want to. The steel is just that much better.

 

[Cosmoline]

Not unlike the modern Hornady version, which I will no longer use on deer. Those from Woodleigh are vastly superior. I have to disagree about the 1895's handling, there's nothing "slow" about it, particularly compared to a big bore boltgun.

But compared with a '94 Winchester it's heavier and slower in the hand. And if you amped it up to cope with .458 Win Mag it would have to be even heavier, and therefore slower. You'd defeat much of the point of a levergun to start with. A bolt can be thrown very quickly if the rifle is a good fit and the shooter understands how to work it. Maybe a 12 lb. levergun would still be slightly faster, but when you start dealing with mega-size elephant rounds I doubt it.

Leverguns are fantastic for a lot of purposes. Close to medium range hunting, bear protection, and just as a meat bag rifle they're very tough to beat. But amping the design up to shoot true elephant rounds just gives you a mutant rifle. They've been maxed out with the existing wildcats and .450 Marlins.

 

[Maverick223]

H&H, thank you for the added information. That is great news. Forgive my ignorance, but are you permitted to carry ivory, leather, et al back to the USA from such a hunt?

 

[CraigC]

But compared with a '94 Winchester it's heavier and slower in the hand.

Of course, just as a Remington Model 7 .308 is much lighter and handier than a boltgun in .416Rigby. What's the point?