Lever Action Tactical and Plinker

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Are there low-penetration varmint bullets for the 30-30?
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There are (or were?) some saboted rounds available, but I'm not sure that they are "low-penetration" due to the higher velocity. They are also quite expensive, and pointed IRRC, so your lever action becomes essentially a single shot.

As I have mentioned before, there are "cowboy" loads readily available for the 30-30: flat nose lead bullets with lower velocity. They don't kick much and they are usually cheaper than hunting rounds to boot. The POI is different so you have to test them and adjust your sights accordingly.

The ones I have claim 1500 fps velocity, so they are a little hotter than a .357.

I don't see why this option doesn't get more attention in these threads ...? Maybe it is too simple? :)
 
verily, thou must seek frangibles!

>there are "cowboy" loads readily available for the 30-30: flat nose lead bullets with lower velocity. They don't kick much and they are usually cheaper than hunting rounds to boot. The POI is different so you have to test them and adjust your sights accordingly.

Although POI differences between loads are not that large indoors at 30 feet, you'd better test ANY round to make sure it feeds in your gun. And it wouldn't hurt to know where it hits, yeah...

>The ones I have claim 1500 fps velocity, so they are a little hotter than a .357.

But much too slow to penetrate armor. Even in 1975, I knew of thugs with old Korean War armor. Surplus military and civilian kevlar vests are a staple of gun shows, and anyone with an IQ over 80 has Spectra for full-dress occasions nowadays. (Of course this may not be the demographic committing home invasions).

>I don't see why this option doesn't get more attention in these threads ...? Maybe it is too simple?

No, the problem is modern construction codes that force people to live in buildings "armored" by a layer of Styrofoam over sheetrock. Your "mild" Cowboy load would shoot through a whole Dallas apartment building. That's where the Glasers come in; after they hit the first wall they burst and turn into shot (I think #8 in .30-.30, someone correct me). Plus the Glaser might stop the intruder from shooting you before he is stopped.

I will admit that someone who actually shoots the Cowboy events will probably hit the intruder and reduce the overpenetration problem...
 
The ones I have claim 1500 fps velocity, so they are a little hotter than a .357.
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I know you meant out of a 4"-6" handgun.;)

Out of an 18.5" barrel, muzzle velocity for .357 is closer to 1800 fps up to 2000+ fps, depending on load. www.marlinfirearms.com

I have a Marlin 1894C with a red dot. Really fast acquisition, light, and very accurate as far as I can see(maybe 50-75 yds.) It's probably more of a toy, but it works for me. I plan to mount it in my Jeep. However in a home defensive situation I probly would go to my G30 or Rem 870 first, depending on the threat.

That being said, a larger cal PC leverGun like the 30/30 might be handy in the future.:eek:
 
I recently gave away my Marlin .30-30 as a gift, but not because I didn't like it. (Someone I know needed a rifle badly.)

In any case, I've owned three leverguns. Two Winchester Trappers (16" carbines) in .357 and .44, and the Marlin. Both Winchesters had a sort of spring-loaded take-up built deliberately into the trigger; it wasn't bad, but it was annoying. For that reason I'd go with the Marlin. But not all Winchesters have it, and if the Winchester you handled works for you, then by all means, go for it! They're great rifles.
 
frangiblissimo

>>Your "mild" Cowboy load would shoot through a whole Dallas apartment building.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>But then so would a 357 magnum from a 4" barrel ...

Not if it were frangible! My point here is that we should stick to using weaponry that is only one century out of date. Plain ol' lead was what they had in 1875; we can do better now.

Of course, I'm the sort of nut that thinks that someday, men will walk on the Moon:
http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/neil_armstrong.htm
 
Okay, I give up :rolleyes:

What are the parameters that we are trying to meet here?

Seems like what we really need is a bullet that will penetrate body armor but won't go through sheet rock.

Of course, then all the boogie men will start wearing drywall vests.

Or maybe the bullet could have a little parachute that popped out 25 feet from the muzzle and stopped it.

:neener:
 
If you're a CEO of a large company or fairly rich, then, yes, some vest-wearers might enter your home to kidnap you for ransom, etc., etc. But I doubt that some guys are going to buy vests to come in and steal your toaster oven and $45.67 in loose cash. And, again, most drugged out addicts would have pawned any vest they had. The "could be" scenarios are staggering. What if he wore a vest? What if? The chances of a high powered rifle round exiting your house are much greater than a person wearing armor breaking in. If you shoot an intruder with a high powered weapon, there is a 100% chance that round is going to exit your house. What is the chance of an intruder wearing body armor? Read "Armed Citizen" in American Rifleman and see for yourself.

Boy, sure is a heap of doin's over something easily solved by a shotgun or proper ammo selection for a handgun. And with good marksmanship, armor is not a problem. No one has a bullet-proof head. As far as riots, etc. which is where I see the use of rifles for self-defense, you use what is effective because the cavalry ain't comin'!
 
little parachutes

>Or maybe the bullet could have a little parachute that popped out 25 feet from the muzzle and stopped it.

(sigh) yes, exactly. That's what a frangible bullet does after it goes through the first barrier (whether that barrier be a piece of Spectra or a plate of sphagetti): it turns into a bunch of little parachutes that transfer energy to the air (and spread the energy over a wide area for the next impact; even mold-covered sheetrock can stop individual #8 shot).

For that matter, if we were real people instead of livestock, we'd have safer weapons that did indeed have ammo that self-destructed at a preset range, just like the ammo for the Army's prototype 20mm individual weapon.

As regarding shotguns: they're heavy and clumsy compared to a Trapper lever action (now look what you've done, you've got me saying good things about ancient weapons and hokey religions. But they're still no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.) And you'll probably never get your wife to practice with the shotgun. (The wife factor is the problem with the pistol; even at 30 feet the carbine is more accurate). And finally, if something is going to weigh 8 lbs and have 35 foot-lbs of recoil energy, it is morally obliged to at least go through a level II vest or medieval plate armor. JMJO
 
I am always amazed at how these threads often evolve. Geez, the point of this thread was to replace my AR-15 with something a little more PC as home defender, close range hunter, and plinker if my State passes a law to take my "assault rifle" away. I chose the Win 94 .30-30 to do just that. I don't think they are going to take my "cowboy gun" away anytime soon. The .30-30 will do the job. Ammo is not as cheap as I thought though. Cheapest so far around here is 10 bucks for 20.

Ain't this a great forum!
 
cowboy immunity

>I don't think they are going to take my "cowboy gun" away anytime soon.

Let's hope not, though notice that they have taken even the swords (let alone lever action rifles) away from the spineless Saxon peasants. There aren't really that many cowboys voting these days... oops, this post is going to be cast out into the political section if I don't do something fast...

Anyone have any experience with those 125-grain hollowpoints in .30-30?
 
Up front, I don't really know what I'm talking about with this particular post, but it does seem to me that a .308-diameter hollowpoint bullet of about 100 to 125 grains might work well for the .30-30 in defensive applications. Sticking my neck out even further, I would guess that muzzle velocity should be kept down to about 1500 to 1800 fps out of a 20 inch carbine barrel.
 
"Boy, sure is a heap of doin's over something easily solved by a shotgun or proper ammo selection for a handgun."

Yeah, Sir Galahad, but where's the fun in that? Heck, boards like this thrive on what-if scenarios. If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that, almost inevitably, things never turn out like I envision them. But at least thinking about some possible scenarios, and doing my best to prepare for them, MIGHT help if an armed encounter should ever occur.

We gunfolk tend to go overboard on the latest whiz-bang weapon or tactic that promises to do it all (goodness know I have). More time (and money) spent training and less on gadgets would be more beneficial, but that's not quite as fun as the anticipation and execution of buying a tangible object.

I will say this, bad_dad_brad, you are on the right track with regards to a lever-action rifle, IMO. They're reasonably priced and plenty accurate and powerful for most any self-defense scenario the average Joe Citizen is likely to encounter.
DAL
 
"Varmint" bullets also interesting article...

I think it's probably true that the 30-30 has too much penetration for the neighborhood. (Are there low-penetration varmint bullets for the 30-30?)
Click to expand...

You might try experimenting with the 100 grain plinker (I think it is a speer bullet). It might work well if your bullet seating die can position it properly. A Lee factory crimp die would put a nice tight crimp wherever you needed on the bullet shank. I could make some flat point bullets for you in the lighter weights but the jackets that I am set up to use are quite thick at the bottom and set up for big game hunting. If driven fast enough they might work fine but I can't promise anything.

Also check here for an interesting lever action rifle article. He discusses many of the applications of this type of rifle including the cowboy assault rifle.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lee_marlin44.htm
 
I see on page 265 of the Speer Manual #13 they have a "Varminter" bullet. Speer part number 1835, 110 grains. They show loads from 1871 to 2708 fps for the 30-30.

But there is a note about some rifles having throats too short to load it to the given 2.415 OAL. Have to check it out.

I've had really good luck with Speer bullets and this Manual 13. Mostly .308 and 44mag.
 
mashaffer,

Dang it! After reading that website, now I just have to have a Marlin in .44.

So many guns, so little money.

That is a good website on lever action rifles. Thanks.

Brad.
 
While I have all of you lever action experts out there listening, I am wondering if this is a good technique for fast shooting and keeping the target aquired.

I quickly cock the hammer before moving the lever to eject and re-load. Makes moving that lever a heck of a lot easier and it seems like a very natural thing to do.

I am trying to think of a downside to this but I can't. The hammer extension that comes with the 94 seems to make this a little easier to do as well.

Anybody else find this a natural thing to do to facilitate rapid fire with a lever action like the 94?
 
Float: Question on hammer cocking.

I think my last question to lever action experts got lost, so I am floating this up so that it might get noticed for an answer. I am interested in an opinion on this technique:

While I have all of you lever action experts out there listening, I am wondering if this is a good technique for fast shooting and keeping the target aquired.

I quickly cock the hammer before moving the lever to eject and re-load. Makes moving that lever a heck of a lot easier and it seems like a very natural thing to do.

I am trying to think of a downside to this but I can't. The hammer extension that comes with the 94 seems to make this a little easier to do as well.

Anybody else find this a natural thing to do to facilitate rapid fire with a lever action like the 94?
 
Okay, I have ZERO experience shooting levers (something I hope to remedy), but when I saw your question the first time up I'll tell you what it made me think. It cast my mind to the episode of American Shooter I saw this weekend, when they covered Guns that Won the West--including, of course, the 94 and its predecessors. They showed footage of dudes shooting these things, some at a pretty good clip, and that lever-activated bolt was shucking out the back end of the receiver with real zip. So, when I read your post, I thought: Ouch! If you get in the habit of hand cocking the thumb, I bet the day is gonna come when your lever-fingers get just a smidge ahead of your hammer-thumb, and that thumb is gonna get pinched.

But, maybe not. All I really know is, I've never seen anyone do what you're describing.

cg
 
On several occations I've tried to hit a running jackrabbit with my .357 trapper Win 94. It's as close to rapid fire as I've come using a lever-action. I was quite easy for me to send several rounds down range in a hurry. I can see that cocking the hammer for the first shot might be of some help, but I don't know if there would be any advantage following shots(just one more thing to try to remember). Keep in mind though, this was with a .357, the recoil on it is just a tad more than a .22 so it might be a different story using a 30-30.

I would also agree that the chances of pinching something are going to increase if you try your method but, with enough practice it might be avoided.

Six
 
Smoother, friendlier gun....

I hate a stiff-action gun, so I smoothed the action on my Marlin 1894P by running it a few hundred times with the abrasive Remington Bore Cleaner on the tight spots.

I followed this by a major solvent flush (spray gun) and then a flush (spray gun) with Rem Oil - and another 300 cycles. Then another Rem Oil flush, blow-out, Rem Oil and a slick grease on the operating faces.

The action is SUPER-SLICK now, and feeds and ejects like a rocket.

(But I did this on my own. I'm sure a gunsmith might be critical of the procedure.)

I hate sharp edges, so I spent a full day stoning and polishing away all the sharp edges on the lever, hammer, trigger, and so on, and re-blued them with cold blue. Now I can grab the gun ANYWHERE and not feel anything even the least bit sharp.

The gun has a whole new friendly personality. 44
 
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The .30-30 is a great all-around round. I would not want to plink with such a powerful round, unless I'm wearing a good shoulder pad. The handgun cartridge .357 magnum, when fired from a 20-inch rifle barrel, takes on much more velocity and power than when fired from a revolver. Many rifle-toting owners who use a handgun cartridge in their rifle often use the same cartridge in a revolver.
 
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