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Liberty vs. Browning (safe dealers help!)

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by Trent, Feb 14, 2013.

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  1. heeler

    heeler Member

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    When power tools come into play all gun safes will lose Trent unless you own a TL-15 or TL-30 gun safe which are quite expensive and even more than that over 1.5 tons in weight generally.
     
  2. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Yep, an RSC is a joke against power tools. Luckily most burglars aren't smart enough to steal tools from your garage to work on your safe, and in an overwhelming number of cases, a burglar doesn't have that sort of time luxury. Couple that with a residential burglary being a relatively rare event, you're probably NOT going to encounter a burglar that would defeat a RSC. Anyone that has worked with power tools knows that sheet metal poses a very wimpy barrier to even a $50 power tool. You're not going to get real power tool or torch protection from a RSC-rated gun safe. The things that stop those kinds of attack is lots of steel and lots of concrete. You're not getting that protection in a safe big enough to store guns for under 3000lbs and $5000. The security levels established by the UL are the minimum time needed inside artificial laboratory conditions.

    Physical security is a bit different in that you pretty much know what it takes for a skilled individual to compromise your security features. All the ratings for the safes are established by technicians with the blueprints, so they know exactly where and how to attack. They have the best tools available. In the real world, burglars aren't operating in a lab where the timer only counts when the tool is contacting the safe and they don't have blueprints. That's why commercial insurance companies take the UL tags as gospel and feel safe in ensuring the contents of these safes at commercial businesses.

    This was a few months back at a local Costco, but I thought it especially delicious irony:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
  3. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Oh my, that is ironic.

    So ... what you're saying is someone with 15 minutes and a saw wins against whatever safe I buy?

    Ugh. That's a little disheartening. I'd almost rather hide the damn things than put them all in one spot and paint a big target on them.
     
  4. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    15 minutes of lab time for lab technicians with blueprints and proper safe-opening tools for a TL-15 rated safe to cut a 6x6" hole. Only the door is rated to TL-15 though, not the sides or you'd have a TL15x6 safe. Some TL-15 safes have crappy bodies. Some have pretty sturdy bodies. YMMV. In the hands of a burglar, that might actually mean 30 minutes? An hour? Two hours? It's unknown, but 15 minutes is your guaranteed minimum. With a good home security system and good neighbors, a thief will never have the time necessary to break into something like that. With a good home security system and good neighbors, a thief shouldn't have the time to break into a RSC either. There have been thieves that failed to get into a RSC after spending an hour bashing and hacking at it. There have been thieves that have broken into a RSC after 10 minutes of work. Thieves are variable and the UL listing kind of gives you a minimum working time, with a large margin of safety. In any case, you are correct that concealment is more important.

    If a thief breaks in and doesn't know you have a safe(s) and doesn't find it in his cursory ransacking, then you're fine. If you have a safe and he finds it, he now has to decide if he has the time to spare and wants to gamble his pillowsack of trinkets he has collected for what might be behind that safe door. Hopefully your home alarm is blaring and it's already sent a message to the security company by now.

    If you have two smaller safes, both concealed, most thieves, assuming they actually find one of your safes, will assume it's the only one. Again, he now has to decide if he has the time to spare and wants to gamble his pillowsack of trinkets he has collected for what might be behind that safe door. Worst case scenario, he empties one safe but you've put your eggs in two baskets.

    Sorry Trent, but that's the harsh reality of the compromises made on a consumer-grade gun safe. It just doesn't really offer that much protection against a serious brute force attack. The price would scare off most folks, and the weight is too much for most people to deal with.
     
  5. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Hmm. I'm starting to think my original "Vault" extension to the house is a much better option. 8" reinforced concrete walls with footers that drop 3' below the grade, a dedicated vault door. The vault would offer 6+ hours of fire protection (It'd actually be stronger than it started, after the fire...) AND require a wrecking ball to get in to.

    The price is high and the work would be highly disruptive while it's being done. But I'm not limited to storing guns, as I could also secure all of my ammo/magazines/etc.

    And, it'd stand up to an EF-5 tornado, and have room for my family.

    So let's talk vault doors.

    Spring is coming and the ground will thaw.
     
  6. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    If you have the money, a vault doubles up as a panic room and a place to securely store supplies, food, water, all sorts of valuables, and your family if you live in a tornado zone. That's completely out of my realm of knowledge though!
     
  7. cbpagent72

    cbpagent72 Member

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    The summit denali is 7 gauge steel and the summit Everest is 1/4" steel. I almost started looking at the sturdy line of safes but I couldn't get over the lack of paint options.

    Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
     
  8. gonefishin1

    gonefishin1 Member

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    I am in the same boat. I started looking at safes and started getting disappointed they all can be cut into with a grinder and cut off wheel. I am wanting one with 1/4 walls at least. I really like the everest and I read that they cover $10000 in contents from a fire but not sure how true it is. I think they are 3/16 outer and then a 1/8 inner. I liked the homeland safes but read horrible reviews. I found a company here in texas securityproducts that custom builds them. 1/4 walls gloss paint upgraded fire protection for the mid $4000 range. I just can't get past the looks of the sturdy otherwise it would be my choice.

    My question which rsc has all out max strength and fire protection in that price range????
     
  9. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    RSC is a pass/fail standard. If a tested safe is RSC +.001% or knocking on the door of a TL-15 rating, you still get a RSC label. There is no way to determine which RSC has more security, other than educated speculation based off construction materials.

    Forget about fire ratings. They almost all use drywall. None of them have a UL-issued fire rating. They all use other lesser/unknown third party labs to achieve their advertised fire ratings and who knows exactly what those testing criteria are compared to the UL gold standard.
     
  10. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Seems like the RSC market is selling a lot of a false sense of security.

    The more research I've done, the more disheartened I am that I'd really be protecting anything from a determined attacker.
     
  11. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    The best consumer is an educated consumer. ;)
     
  12. gonefishin1

    gonefishin1 Member

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  13. Zeeemu

    Zeeemu Member

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  14. cbpagent72

    cbpagent72 Member

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    I think Summit is one of the only companies that reimburses you money if the items are damaged in a fire. The Everest is $10,000, I just wish I could afford the Everest. It appears from their website that it is solid 1/4 steel sides and 1 1/4" plate door.

    http://www.summitsafes.com/everest


    Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
     
  15. heeler

    heeler Member

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    I dont consider gun safes false security if taken into the context of what they are meant to be and that is a resonable barrier against residential burglaries that for the most part are done by drug heads and wandering mean spirited teenagers.
    Some RSC's such as your big box store sub grand gun safes will give some protection but those with reasonably thick doors and thicker body steeled units will do even better.
    What they will not give you is hardened protection from power tools and major duty attacks against sledge hammers massive pry bars and driven wedges.
    Just remember that unless the thief knows of your gun safes existent,which he should not,and you have bolted down your premium RSC gun safe in a strategic strong point that pretty much prevents a prying attack to get started then you are miles ahead of the gun owner that has all sorts of firearms stuffed away behind furniture,closets,dresser drawers,etc.
    Most of us want the best protection there is for their residence but once they see the price of the TL-15-30 safe and of course the sheer weight of these things,then the idea of the more premium grade of RSC gun safe begins to make perfect sense.
    No sense over thinking all of this unless your valuables you are trying to protect behind steel walls sky rocket to 25k or more in value.
    My opinion only and YMMV.
     
  16. Torian

    Torian Member

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    I've actually got a MESA safe I bought from Sams Club that ended up being about 700 delivered. It weighs about 500 pounds. Very happy with it.
     
  17. Batty67

    Batty67 Member

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    I did a fair amount of research and rapidly came to the conclusion that I did not want to spend 4-5k on a safe given my collection and all accessories is worth maybe that amount. So, I went with a 500-lb, $600 Farm and Fleet Winchester 24-gun (more like 16). It will defeat a casual burglar, as I have a very loud dog and good neighbors. Unless I was willing to pay 10x that amount to defeat a determined and prepared burgler, it did not seem worth it. YMMV.
     
  18. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Assume I'm not over-thinking this. :)
     
  19. heeler

    heeler Member

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    I didn't mean you in particular Trent.
    However if one reads enough of the past gun safe threads here and on other boards one will come away with this thought as most guys truely want an invincible hardened fortress to keep their goods from falling into enemy hands.
    It's a guy thing I think.
     
  20. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    The reality is that most gun safes will never be touched during a burglary. Residential burglaries are not like business burglaries.

    This doesn't change the fact that you should still buy the proper tool for the job. It also doesn't change the fact that you should know that your typical gun safe will often times not live up to the marketing claims made by the manufacturer.

    The only thing worse than loosing your property due to no security, is loosing your property under a false sense of security.
     
  21. 98f150

    98f150 Member

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    The safes you mentioned are not true safes but a RSC

    Did you know that calling a RSC a safe is not correct. From a technical standpoint a RSC is not a rated safe.
     
  22. CB900F

    CB900F Member

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    Fella's;

    I sell Graffunder safes, not RSC's. And I can get you a small one for the $4,500.00 figure mentioned earlier. However, with a small unit your cost per protected cubic inch of interior space is higher than with a larger unit.

    Half inch plate door, quarter inch plate steel on the other five sides. The five other surfaces than the door are backed with a proprietary mixture of concrete, and that is reinforced with sheet steel on the inside. The B6026 weighs 1225 lbs empty & has slots for 12 long guns.

    The B7248 weighs 2340 lbs empty, has the same construction, and depending on interior configuration will have up to 64 slots. But I strongly discourage using that interior, in most cases it's very impractical. The 48 slot interior is much more user-friendly. A unit like this typically sells for something around $7,000.00

    The B series is the bottom of the line with Graffunder. You can go up, they weigh more and cost more.

    We do vault doors also, custom made to your size & specifications.

    900F
     
  23. PowderKeg

    PowderKeg Member

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    a1, cesium, and others all make some very good points. Speaking for myself, I'm under no delusion that my Sturdy will forever protect my firearms from all sorts of evil mutant zombie attacks, Armageddon, or the very fires of Hades:evil::fire:. I bought one to have some piece of mind when away from home, to protect against the smash 'n grab punks looking for fast thrills and the meth-heads looking for quick bucks, and to buy some time/protection for the Fire Dept to arrive, if that's ever (hopefully not) necessary. If somebody REALLY wanted to get in the thing and had the time, tools, and know-how to do it, well that's why I've also got the guns insured. If the manufacturers/re-sellers of today's typical RSCs/gun safes REALLY believed in all the marketing mumbo jumbo they spout, don't you think more of them would offer some sort of coverage for the contents if lost to theft or fire, as a hook to pull in more sales? I put Sturdy in there too, as they only warranty the safe itself and not the contents. I don't expect nor do I blame them for not covering contents, as there are FAR too many variables that can affect the eventual outcome of an attempted attack or fire. That and despite how some of the sales pitches sound, RSC manufacturers/sellers aren't in the insurance business anyway.

    What really spurred me on to finally buy one was hearing six or so months ago about a co-worker arriving home to a ransacked house (out in farm country) and kids racing out the basement door. Ironically, they left an old .22 rifle and a huge jar of change (both in plain sight), but dumped over/out desks, drawers, and shelves searching for hidden goodies. While I currently live in a very decent neighborhood, some of the riff-raff I see not-too-far-away has caused me to pause for contemplation.

    Also, I really needed to do some organizing/consolidating of the "collection" - I still have one revolver floating around somewhere 'cause I can't remember where I stashed it....:eek:
     
  24. 98f150

    98f150 Member

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    I have a Brown double door C rated fire lined safe

    I have a C fire lined double door safe and I can'rt be happier with it. I didn't want to wase money on a RSC so I sucked it up and spent $10,000 on my safe. The 10K price was everything delivery to Texas from California then a lock company installed it in my house.
     
  25. CB900F

    CB900F Member

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    Fella's;

    There are three companies that make true safes for the consumer market that I know of. They are; the very high end AMSEC's, Brown, and Graffunder. I'm a Graffunder dealer, and I feel very comfortable being one.

    900F
     
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