Limpwristing and cartridge jams?

[FSJeeper]

A female co-worker and I decided to take the concealed handgun license course last week. She had zero experiece with pistols. She bought Kahr 9mm because the police chief recommended it to her and I own one with 100% perfect experience. I recomended the S&W J frame in .38 for simplicity but she was sold on the semi auto.

2 weeks ago we went to the local range so I could teach her how to shoot. Her Kahr jammed on almost every shot. My Kahr has never jammed once but when I let her try mine it jammed consistently also.

I told her to forget the Kahr and use one of my high end SIGs. Same fricking thing, consistent jamming. My SIGs have always performed flawlessly.

The guy running the shooting range told us she was limpwristing the gun and did not have the mass or strength to shoot it and that was causing the malfunctions. This is a very petite lady but I never thought lack of mass and strength could cause jamming.

Long story short, while qualifying for her license at the course my SIG started jamming every round. The Instructor told me I needed to learn how to clean my guns and gave her his 1911 which performed perfectly, zero jams.

First of all, has any of you heard about this issue? Second, my manhood is bruised because the 1911 performed when my SIG would not. A guy at the range told me the design of the 1911 is not dependent on the shooting scenario the way other pistols are. Whats up with that?

BTW, I have put over 500 rounds through that SIG after she shot with not one jam.

 

[Ron James]

Limp wristing and the cause is common knowledge and yes, some gun designs are more susceptible than others. If the gun is held firmly it doesn't happen. I could go into the physics of kinetic energy, mass, recoil, and fulcrums but I hate typing.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

With a recoil operated handgun, the frame must be held rigidly in relation to the slide. If not, and the frame recoils rearward along with the slide, the slide may not travel rearward enough to fully eject the fired case, or may not return forward with sufficient force to feed and chamber the next round. The wrist and arm must be held straight and firm, so that when the gun fires the hand, wrist and arm will move upward as one, somewhat like a pump handle.

"Limp wristing" is a somewhat pejorative term. Also, IMO it is overused as an excuse for consistent stoppages. However, your friend's experience indicates that it can be a real phenomenon.

 

[jfdavis58]

I doubt the limp wrist-ing excuse almost as much as the dirty gun idea. I bet, in fact, that she is hanging onto the gun with all the strength she can muster. I saw this same phenomena at my CCW/CHL qualification. She should seek-out a competent handgun instructor and get her grip and stance properly into form. It would be interesting to see her targets.

 

[FSJeeper]

She is starting with an expert next week. Her targets were excellent in terms of accuracy. Probably in tenth place out of 50. She has the basic concepts down very well.

 

[FSJeeper]

I might ad, several experts said she would always have this problem until she iincreases her wrist strength.

 

[JDGray]

Small, lightweight guns, are more likely to be effected by limp wristing. Throw in stouter recoil systems needed for shorter slides, and defensive ammo, and the problem gets worse. I would guess if your lady friend locked her elbow, or had a firmer grip, the problem would go away. A clean, oiled slide, wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Runningman]

The biggest factor in limp wristing jams besides the limp wristing itself is the actual weight of the frame without the slide or barrel.

Heavy steel or stainless frames will usually dramatically reduce limp wristing jams with a person having this issue. For this reason I would not recommend a polymer framed semi auto pistol to a novice pistol shooter for protection.

Recoil spring pressure and actual foot pounds of muzzle energy also play a part.

Personally I think your co worker would be better off with a Ruger SP101.

 

[tipoc]

"Limp wristing" is a slightly pejorative term. As others have said it means that as person does not have their wrists locked while shooting. and so is not providing a stable platform against which the slide can cycle. This has little to do with muscle mass or strength though. Small and light folk have been known to handle powerful handguns well (a good many sub 100 pd. Vietnamese women and youth for example).

The "experts" at the range told you two things: 1. It was limp wristing. 2. Your gun was dirty and that was part of the problem. From a distance hard to tell what was right.

At any rate she's going to classes and that will help.

One question I have though; is it a good idea for folks with little or no training to try for their CCW permits before they know how to handle firearms? Seems to me her experience would have been more useful with a few classes in basic gunhandling first before encouraging her to get a CCW. This course would have allowed her to pass safely and learn more from the experience. Just a thought.

tipoc

 

[Bullet]

Give her a lighter recoil spring and see if this fixes it.

 

[scythefwd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

This video shows that limp wristing can cause malfunctions. It also shows that it is gun dependent. I bet he is limp wristing more than onyone else on the face of the planet does when he is doing it.

 

[FSJeeper]

OK, issue solved. The pro fixed the issue right away. No brainer for him. She was locking her elbows and gripping the pistol with all of her might forcing all of the recoil into her tiny wrists. All that was required was her to unlock her elbows, reduce the visegrip she had on it, and let the recoil be taken through her arms and elbows instead of her wrists. Hundreds of rounds fired since in both her Kahr, my Sigs, and others. Zero issue. Problem solved.

For the record, the pistols were properly cleaned and cared for. None of them jammed until she shot it. Never jammed on me ever.

Interesting problem and total solution.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

All that was required was her to unlock her elbows, reduce the visegrip she had on it, and let the recoil be taken through her arms and elbows instead of her wrists.

You've touched on a good point. It is not necessary to hold the gun with a white knuckle grip, and it does not help anyway if the wrists are still allowed to move.

 

[Snarlingiron]

It can be done. I have taken a very petite lady from my office to the range a couple of times. She must weigh 100 lbs. dripping wet. Very small hands and wrists. Yet, she has had no problems with either my Glock 26 or my Glock 19. Glocks have somewhat of a reputation for not liking to be limp wristed. I taught her the layered thumbs grip and Isosceles stance. I'm not saying that is the solution, just that it has been very successful for her.