Loaded Chamber: Training on how to avoid ND?

[el Godfather]

Dear THR:
I always carry my handgun on person with loaded chamber. This is the way I recommend to those who seek my advice since it is very unlikely that in case I have to resort to the use of weapon, I will be given the opportunity to rack the slide.

However, today my friend who carries a CZ PCR had a negligent discharge of his weapon in the drawing room. He had come in the house and felt it comforting to remove the weapon from his body. At which point he wanted to clear the chamber by racking slide and squeezing the trigger while pointing the gun in the safe direction. He was, however, negligent in removing the magazine before racking the slide. Needless to say he had a negligent discharge. For a while he was stunned when I immediately told him to remove the magazine and clear the chamber before pulling the trigger again- which it seemed like he might have done in sheer confusion.

My question is on his behalf- how to practice to avoid this sort of incident. Or perhaps what sort of protocol to adopt to avoid this from happening again?

I will appreciate all the advices and personal experiences.

My friend is also a member here. If he feels comfortable he may also ask more direct advice or answer any queries.

Thank you

 

[Fryerpower]

I always check two things while making sure the gun is empty:
Magazine well empty, check!
Chamber empty, check!

Then I release the slide, move the safety to safe (which decocks the hammer), and then put the magazine back in.

Jim

 

[Skribs]

1) Training in the proper order of how to handle a semi-auto. If you go out of order, bad things happen.
2) Visually confirm empty chamber before pulling trigger.
3) If there is a need to lower the hammer (which I don't see unless required for cleaning), lower it gently instead of just pulling the trigger.
4) Why was he clearing in the first place? I don't clear my guns if there's no reason to.
5) You mentioned it, but following the other safety rules prevented this from being a tragedy!

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The CZ-75D PCR is equipped with a decocker. Proper use of the decocker should prevent this sort of thing from ever happening.

1) Drop magazine
2) Rack slide several times
3) lock slide open
4) Visual and tactile verification of empty chamber
5) close slide
6) decock

 

[smalls]

Protocol? Keep your damn finger out of the damn trigger guard untill you've cleared the damn gun!

This should be an automatic switch in anyone who touches guns. It should be second nature.

Why was he pulling the trigger to begin with? That's NOT a step in clearing your weapon.

 

[Zoogster]

The best training is being uncomfortable with pulling the trigger.
I have not had a ND, and hope to avoid them in the future.


Even if I just unloaded a gun I won't pull the trigger on it indoors even in a relatively safe direction unless I cycled the action a couple times while looking in it or holding it so a round would fall out with gravity. I don't even like just once because a cartridge can potentially get pulled out of the chamber, and then pushed back into the chamber on some guns, especially when cycled slowly, or if the extractor is not working well.
While if you cycle it fast while either looking or holding it so a round could fall out all the movement will likely remove the round from the gun.

However I don't even like that because there is always a possiblity that even cycling the action a round could be hung up inside the action or in the chamber if the extractor is not working well.


Another thing I often do if I have any question on its status is put my finger in the chamber. Don't open the action all the way, just enough to put the finger in. If you feel the barrel empty the gun is not going to fire. There is no doubt it is unloaded at least until cycled again if you put your finger through the ejection port and feel nothing in the chamber before easing the slide or bolt forward again. Works well in low light too.

Another option, I also pull the slide or charging handle back, hold it there, and visually look both within the action of the firearm as well as in the empty chamber. If any round is in the action, the chamber, or about to be loaded from a visible magazine (which should have been removed) it will be easy to see.
That is probably the most reliable way to teach someone else.
I feel it is important to always check the action too in case a bullet just got pulled out of the chamber but may go back into battery when you release the slide or charging handle.
Some guns can even have a round sit in the action with none in the magazine and non in the chamber, and get loaded after it is cycled again. Some people even use this to load an extra round in some shotguns by putting an extra round on the shell lifter.


If at any time a round comes out of or is seen in the gun you cycle then everything must stop and start from scratch. The presumption it was unloaded was obviously wrong, and so more rounds may be in the firearm or magazine and the entire unloading process must be restarted. Removing the magazine, checking the magazine, and then emptying the action. Cannot just assume that was the only round.





Any time one gives thier attention to something else and leaves a gun, or doesn't pay attention to it for awhile like watching tv, talking on a phone, using a computer, or other brief task etc then it needs to be checked again.
The act of unloading a firearm is so simple and mundane the brain can recall or remember you doing it earlier in the day, or on a different day like it just was done. If you have done it many times then your memory of doing it is untrustworthy even if it has been with you the whole time.
Open that action and check again.



It is pretty simple. Takes a few seconds. If you have any doubt you just open the action again and take a look.
You should be uncomfortable pulling the trigger if the gun firing would be undesirable. If you don't have that discomfort then it is easier to get stuck in a routine that can eventually result in the trigger being pulled on a live round.
However how do you train discomfort?
That guy may be uncomfortable now and more cautious.




Perhaps a way to train discomfort or insure safety would be to have people rapidly load and unload and field strip a gun with primed empty brass dozens of times in a row, on a gun that requires pulling the trigger to disassemble. Loading it and putting one in the chamber and a loaded magazine in the magwell between each unloading and field strip.
If they eventually get a bang they might get the benefit of a ND without the risks and start being more careful. If they don't they will have some good practice.
As rapidly as possible would be more likely to catch mistakes. So a time limit to do a certain number of unloading field stripping and reloadings.

 

[AFDavis11]

Dude, that sucks. . . My thoughts . . .

So, first you need to consider the need for clearing the gun in the first place, and second you need to evaluate what you consider a "safe" direction.

I'm not sure why your friend failed to drop the magazine. It sounds like one of the mistakes you make when you "just aren't thinking". It happens sometimes.

Then you can attack the whole procedure for clearing.

I'm not sure what the others above have said, but I will share that my clearing procedure does NOT include pulling the trigger. There are less violent methods of checking whether the barrel is clear. I'm sure I'll be corrected on this, but I'm just questioning the need.

After all, whatever is facing the barrel direction is never actually safe, so technically pulling the trigger to ensure it is unchambered is somewhat fruitless. I suggest a visual inspection instead.

 

[Texan Scott]

BOOGER :banghead: HOOK!

OFF!

BANG :banghead: SWITCH!

 

[mljdeckard]

If only we could come up with a standardized set of rules....say, somewhere between three and five that apply to all guns in every situation, the following of which will prevent ANY negligent discharge.....

 

[Jenrick]

As I train and teach often, I just say the same thing out loud and follow along just like I don on the range. "Lock the slide to the rear. Visibly and physically inspect the magazine well to ensure a magazine isn't inserted. Visibly and physically inspect the chamber to ensure a cartridge is not present. Look away for two seconds. Visibly and physically inspect the magazine well to ensure a magazine isn't inserted. Visibly and physically inspect the chamber to ensure a cartridge is not present. Drop the slide."

It's great to have unconscious competence with our weapons, but in the area of safety we need to be conscious.

-Jenrick

 

[Al Thompson]

ML, good idea.

In the ignorant old Army, since we didn't understand 1911s, we dropped the slide and pulled the trigger. This led to several negligent discharges that I was unfortunately involved in or knew folks on both ends of the pistols.

 

[xXxplosive]

Always........always........drop the mag and rack the slide........In that order.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

My question is on his behalf- how to practice to avoid this sort of incident. Or perhaps what sort of protocol to adopt to avoid this from happening again?

Your friend needs to RTFM (read the friggin' manual) and get experience with his handgun. I wouldn't characterize this as a negligent discharge - it's more like a RECKLESS discharge because he didn't care to learn how to safely operate his pistol, which is equipped with a decocking lever.

 

[jacob2745]

Its been covered pretty well. Drop the mag. Lock the slide back. Visually and physically check for empty mag well. Visually and physically check the chamber. As stated above, be uncomfortable pulling the trigger. It leads to a double or maybe even triple check.

 

[MedWheeler]

Drill him in this:

FOF, which is Finger (trigger) on Frame.

DRC. Drop (magazine.) Rack (slide.) Check (chamber.)

Drop. Rack. Check.
Drop. Rack. Check.
Drop. Rack. Check.

Now, get some snap caps, and drill:

Drop. Rack. Check.
Drop. Rack. Check.
Drop. Rack. Check.
D....

 

[Deaf Smith]

Normally when taking off my CCW Glock I take the holster with it. Same for putting the holster on. The holster covers the trigger guard so no need to touch the trigger!

And when I rack a round in the chamber I point it at the brick fireplace while keeping my finger way off the trigger. That way if for any reason it fires, it fires into a backstop.

And as others have posted there are good procedures to clear your weapon safely.

Deaf

 

[el Godfather]

One thing I do agree whole heartedly and i even told him this is that he needs not to remove weapon off his person in my drawning room. In fact, this should be the last end of the day activity at his premises with all the safety protocols.

It is important that he reads and re-reads the saftey protocol. More importantly, I believe he is not ready to carry with loaded chamber just yet as he is novice. A tragedy has escaped us by simple luck.

 

[tomrkba]

Develop a standard procedure from which you never deviate. It is helpful to have a second gun that is not loaded for "duty" and use that.

1) Remove all ammunition from the area. I place it on a shelf at the opposite end of the room. Locking it up in a safe is a good idea. Only dry fire with one gun at a time.

2) Always use a snap-cap. Using a Snap-Cap forces you to open the action. You're consciously inserting something other than a live cartridge into the chamber. I use a full cylinder worth for revolvers and at least one per magazine for semi-autos.

3) Triple check the action to verify the gun is empty.

4) Dry fire in an area only. The gun with the Snap-Cap remains in the area. The last thing you want to do is "dry fire" your "empty" gun somewhere in your house.

5) Triple check the gun periodically during dry fire to verify the chamber has a Snap-Cap in it.

6) Always work with an agenda. Do 100 reloads in a row. Maybe do 10 draws and dry fire when the gun reaches full extension. Perform a reload and repeat. Come up with various exercises and stick to them.

7) When you finish, put everything away and load up. Place the gun in a holster. Say aloud "Dry fire ended" several times. Do not touch the loaded gun while carrying.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Trying to clear a semi-auto by racking the slide WITHOUT removing the magazine? Isn't that kinda like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto?

Good on him for at the very least keeping it pointed in a safe direction. If you have to have a round go down the barrel that would be the way to do it.

My training advice to every student I teach is the same. Don't rely on the bells and whistles of a firearm to "tell" you when it is safe to clear. LCIs are sometimes hard to see/feel or get worn out and don't stick out as much. Some safeties are decockers, some are not. Its an easy list: magazine well empty, chamber empty. Always in that order. If you are going to pull the trigger to decock the trigger spring, be safe and check the slide twice. It isn't going to destroy the spring to pull back on the slide again to look in the chamber a second time.

 

[Sport45]

Before dry firing lock the slide back. Insert pinky in chamber to verify empty (that's what pinkies are for). Look for daylight through mag well. Pinkies are also good for verifying mag well is empty.

For revolvers open the cylinder and count the empty holes. Twice.

I don't consider a rifle to be empty until I've inserted my pinky in the chamber. Steel, aluminum, and tarnished brass cases have a way of turning invisible once they're loaded in a firearm.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

If your friend was just clearing the weapon....why did he pull the trigger at all??

Pulling the trigger should never be part of any clearing process, ever. I know the Army does it that way. And that is just one of the many thing the Army does that is beyond stupid.

Don't. Pull. The. Trigger.

 

[Ramone]

while it does not substitute for visual and digital (as in sticking your finger in there) confirmation, I was taught since childhood to cycle the action three times after dropping the magazine.

It's still possible that a broken rim or extractor would leave a round in the chamber (therefore requiring the chamber check visually or digitally), you're far more likely to notice rounds popping out if you have not dropped the magazine.

Also, while it doesn't work with a striker fired pistol, I never 'dry fire' after clearing, though I do lower the hammer in a controlled fashion.

 

[Jeff White]

I carry a 1911 on duty. Since my grandchildren are staying with me while my son is deployed to Afghanistan, I load and unload it daily. This is my unloading procedure:

Draw weapon, wipe safety off, point in safe direction, trigger finger indexed on the frame.

Drop magazine

Rack slide removing chambered round and visually verify the chamber is clear

Put safety on

Holster weapon and put duty belt out of children's reach.

At no time does my finger touch the trigger and I do not drop the hammer. It serves no purpose. I have the round that was in the chamber and I have visually checked the chamber was clear. I do not need to drop the hammer for a confirmation that the weapon is unloaded.

I do it this exact way every day. After enough repetitions you don't get steps out of order.

 

[Big Boy]

I do two things.

First, rack the slide several times in quick succession. This makes sure the chamber is clear and no mag.

Then I lock the slide back and visually and physically inspect the chamber. Only then do I consider it clear.

Even after that I never end up pulling the trigger. All of my handguns either have a decocker or are striker fired. The only real excuse I could see for pulling the trigger after clearing is a single action.

 

[NWGlocker]

Echoing what others have said: Whatever steps one may take to clear the weapon and render it safe, I've included the habit of using a finger to check the chamber-- pinkie or index finger, doesn't matter. It serves 2 purposes-- tactile verification that the chamber is empty. More importantly, performing this will slow down the whole process -- intentionally-- and forces me to really make sure it's empty. It prevents me from going into automatic and forgetting a step like your friend...