Loaded Chamber: Training on how to avoid ND?

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He had come in the house and felt it comforting to remove the weapon from his body.
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Okay.


At which point he wanted to clear the chamber by racking slide and squeezing the trigger while pointing the gun in the safe direction.
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Why?

Unless he intended to field strip, or detail strip, the weapon, I cannot see any good reason to clear the chamber.


He was, however, negligent in removing the magazine before racking the slide.
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A stupid mistake.
But again, why did he feel the need to empty the chamber?


I come home from being out and about, I remove my pistol from its holster and place it on my night stand, and I don't touch it for the rest of the night.
The next morning I dress and then holster my pistol and then go about my day.

Never do I have the need to empty the chamber.
 
Our procedure is to always rack the slide 3 times before dry firing. Obviously you could forget to eject the magazine first, which is why YOU ALWAYS RACK IT THREE TIMES. The 2nd and 3rd racks you should not have any cartridges ejected.
 
IMHO, being fully 'in the moment' is critical whenever a loaded firearm is being handled. That requires deliberate thinking about what's going on, what steps must be performed and in what order. Casual (and unnecessary) handling of loaded firearms is not something to be taken for granted IMHO.
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and since all guns are always loaded, you should always be 'fully in the moment' and thinking deliberately.
 
IMHO, being fully 'in the moment' is critical whenever a loaded firearm is being handled. That requires deliberate thinking about what's going on, what steps must be performed and in what order. Casual (and unnecessary) handling of loaded firearms is not something to be taken for granted IMHO.
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and since all guns are always loaded, you should always be 'fully in the moment' and thinking deliberately.
 
Good on him for at the very least keeping it pointed in a safe direction. If you have to have a round go down the barrel that would be the way to do it.
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Plenty of people have castigated this nameless person. They're not wrong, but I see no need to pile on as there's plenty of harsh words to go around. What I will say is that I'm glad no one was hurt.

I want to echo the poster above. El, it wasn't just luck that helped your friend avoid injuring anyone, but the redundancy of the 4 rules. To have an ND is a serious thing that violates at least 3 rules. To injure another person unintentionally requires a violation of all 4. Break any 3, and no one gets hurt. Break 4 and you're calling emergency services. While redundancy helps to account for the faults of humanity to the extent that it helps in preventing injury or death through negligence, consciously and deliberately abiding by all 4 at all times is, of course, the easiest way to prevent an ND.

ETA: Also, I've seen two longer term reactions from folks that have had non-injury NDs. The first type will continue handling firearms irresponsibly, and no amount of training, yelling, or berating will change this. The second type will take a self-critical look at their lapse in judgment, and possibly their own firearms ownership. Whatever they decide, the maturity to take responsibility for the error can be strong medicine for preventing a recurrence of the ND. If there's any silver lining, they come away a much safer user, and advocate for safety around other gun owners.
 
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Not to Beat A Dead Horse
DeadHorse.gif


But yes,
Finger off Trigger, Drop Mag, Rack Slide, Visually recheck...

Kudos to You for Calling it a ND and not an AD, Bet your friend will be more careful and aware of his weapon net time
 
TX.
Yes ND and AD totally different. Thanks for noticing.

I dont know if he will be more careful or not as I am not convinced that he really believes that he did something wrong - rather I get the feeling he blames it more on luck or something other than his fault. I dont really know why or how he will make an argument for that. However, for now he seems a little shocked and shaken, and has stopped carrying on person. I told him to go out and shoot a bit to shake off the jitters. He needs to know his weapon more. Only way to do that is to use it more. Funny thing is that was the first fire out of his PCR ever.
 
If my first fire ever was a ND I'd have the jitters too.

How long had your friend been carrying that PCR without having fired it?
Also wondering if he has experience with other semis.
 
Two-three months.

He had Sig Sauer 226 TacOps that he has shot a little. Had three Glocks but didnt fire any and sold them one after another for various contraptions. He also has an AK 47 type 56 folding stock, Mossberg Compact cruiser and MP5-K that he has some experience with.

He does not lack the mental capacity by any stretch of imagination- rather requires practice that he has been avoiding even when he has been introduced in a circle that invites him on shoot outs at the range.

He needs to chime in here to discuss his opinion or take guidance.
 
Safety and Comfort

smalls said:
Telling novice gun owners to carry with the chamber loaded is bad advice; it is willingly ignoring human nature. Telling somebody he should have trained and practiced more after he has negligently discharged his gun isn't helpful.
Novice gun owners shouldn't be carrying a gun at all untill they are competent with their gun, and this includes safety competency.

You don't tell people to just head down to the gunshop, buy a gun/ammo, load her up and strap it to your hip without being able to handle the weapon with respect and safety.
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The best thing I've read all day.

When I bought my first pistol I spent two years ingraining the four commandments of firearms safety into my brain, learning to respect firearms for what they are and studying their abilities, and becoming comfortable with the idea of carrying a CW before I became committed to the idea of acquiring mt CWP.
 
In IDPA matches you have to pull the trigger to prove the gun is clear before holstering the weapon. In the beginning a lot of people including myself get disqualified from a match for a ND. Something about that timer scrambles your brain. A local club has beginners matches were you shoot four courses of fire instead of six. You have to show the SO your gun is clear before pulling the trigger. After I shot a few of the beginner matches I never have had any more problems.

I did get a 90 day suspension for shooting the steels down from the parking lot because some blankbag was going on about my lack of pistol skills at another range. He might be a master IDPA competitor but he can't hit the broadside of a barn from 60/70 yards.
 
If you don't use the safety between your ears, all the others are a moot point.....not a negligent discharge but a stupid one.....chris3
 
My carry firearm always has a round chambered. At night, I remove both the holster and gun from my belt as-is and place in a safe location. I only clear the weapon prior to regular cleaning, after which a round is chambered and the firearm goes back into the holster. When I first started to carry, I used to clear my weapon every night, however the thought of bullet setback and possible kaboom motivated me out of that habit.
 
Racking the slide is how I load a gun or clear a malfunction, plain and simple. I will not pull the trigger on an empty chamber after fully racking the slide or dropping the slide release, unless I expect the gun to fire (or have the gun pointed downrange where a shot fired would be acceptable). Cuz that's a bad habit to make, IMO. After a full rack, I'll do an additional safety check even if I know full well the gun is empty.

Some people rack the slide multiple times to do a safety check. This would puke out multiple bullets if the magazine were still in. So you'd know you messed up.

I do my safety check the same way I check to make sure one is chambered. I pull the slide back only partway. When verifying the gun is loaded, you pull the slide only partway back so you don't eject the round. When verifying the gun is empty, I pull it only partway back so I can't chamber a round. And overall, I just don't like doing the EXACT SAME MOTION I use to load the gun in order to verify it's empty.

If I REALLY want to make sure, I'll lock the slide back and look in the magwell. Then look in or even poke a finger in the chamber. Then I'll close the slide. And then I'll still do my partial rack/safety check, afterwards. Cuz it just feels wrong to rack the gun to make sure it's empty. What if the mag-fairy put a loaded mag in there after I verified empty but before I closed the slide? :)

This might sound excessive, but if you had to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger to prove it was empty, wouldn't you do that extra step?

My 3 cents.
 
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El, I am just speculating here, but I am guessing that as your friend was "unloading" his firearm you and he were talking?

This, mixed with the fact that he does not have much firearms experience at all, led to the ND. He was multi-tasking when he needed to be focusing 100% on the weapon in his hand.
 
Always a good idea to inspect the chamber (by sight and touch) after dropping the magazine and racking the slide; in the event of a broken or malfunctioning extractor / ejector, you'll be able to successfully avoid an otherwise bad day.
 
I am also wondering why in the world would anyone empty their carry arm if not cleaning or servicing it? :confused:

I do not disarm at one's home. If someone doesn't want my carry arm in their home (or business), I do not enter it. PERIOD. I do disarm if I MUST go into a business that is legally posted.

I NEVER PLAY SHOW AND TELL WITH MY CARRY ARM!!!!!!! I carry a Glock 23. Everyone knows what they look like, you don't need to see or handle mine, and you won't.;)

A good training class is definitely in order. I would never advocate carrying an arm in what Jeff Cooper aptly called "Ceremonial Carry", that is, empty chamber.
 
I am also wondering why in the world would anyone empty their carry arm if not cleaning or servicing it?
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There are plenty of reasons one might need to unload their carry weapon. I don't carry the same pistol off duty as I do on duty. Since my grandchildren are living with me now, I unload the duty weapon when I get home and switch to my off duty weapon.

Some people may not have a safe or other secure place to store their weapon and have children in the house so they need to unload it when putting it up before doing activities that they may not want to have a weapon on their person while they are doing those activities.

Some people may keep a long gun in their home for home protection and want to unload their carry weapon when they remove it.

Your personal lifestyle choices as it comes to carrying a weapon will most likely not work for everyone and the choices they make.
 
On every single firearm I handle, I will visually and mechanically check for empty mag well and empty chamber.

I always do these steps, in this order, no matter what. It's repetition, and I will always do it this way.

1) Drop mag.
2) Open chamber and, if applicable, lock open.
3) Visually check magwell.
4) Visually check chamber.
5) Insert finger into magwell. Should go in into knuckle.
6) Insert finger into chamber. Should feel metal around the outside of the finger, but not on the tip.

It's always done this way, and it guarantees the firearm is unloaded.

The key thing to remember is: ALWAYS drop the mag first. ALWAYS!
 
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