Loaded Chamber: Training on how to avoid ND?

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This sounds like lack of basic gunhandling skills and needs to be addressed immediately.

I won't repeat advice on order of operations to clear a gun. What I will stress is the need for training and practice.

At the very least this person should purchase some snap caps or dummy rounds and practice loading and clearing the gun in a proper and safe fashion until this behavior becomes rote.
 
Firstly, I'm glad no one was hurt.

Secondly, as has been mentioned already, I think this is just an attitude/awareness failure. I'm sure he knew that dropping the magazine first then racking the slide was the proper order. He was simply not being deliberate and got careless. (also probably no reason to be pulling the trigger just to clear the pistol)

Lastly, I can't believe no one has made a "drawing room" joke yet. Doesn't that make it obvious why needed to get his pistol out in the first place?!?!
 
From the responses one thing is evident is the pressing need for the basic training in gun handling and safety before one carries a loaded chamber.
 
It's practice - of the procedures mentioned above. You have to move the action from one you do consciously (and forget) to one that is automatically evoked when you clear the gun. Thus, the trainee needs to go through the drill several times a day. Get a set of snap caps and run repetitions with them.
 
OK, I give up. How do you field strip a Glock?

Clear it first, of course. THEN field strip it.
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IMHO, being fully 'in the moment' is critical whenever a loaded firearm is being handled. That requires deliberate thinking about what's going on, what steps must be performed and in what order. Casual (and unnecessary) handling of loaded firearms is not something to be taken for granted IMHO. Load it, holster it, carry it and other than for necessary administrative purposes (cleaning/maintenance etc.) and intentional firing, leave it holstered when it's loaded and being carried.
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ETA - just ran across this story in the local news: http://www.wral.com/fayetteville-police-chief-accidentally-shoots-self-/11922668/

Fayetteville police chief accidentally shoots self

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Interim Fayetteville Police Chief Katherine Bryant returned to work Friday after she accidentally shot herself in the hand during the Christmas holiday, authorities said.

A spokesman for the city said Bryant was injured when her personal firearm accidentally discharged at home. No one else was hurt.

Officials did not provide more details on the incident.
///snip
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Just cleaning the gun, no doubt. Around here that's the usual explanation for such an incident, since "playing around with a gun I forgot was loaded" is generally a little too much truth for most folks to admit to anyone else.
 
being in the moment

Fred Fuller: "IMHO, being fully 'in the moment' is critical...."

That there is key to firearms safety.

Safety drills and rote learning as suggested by others is useful. Yet in the face of a temporary loss of situational awareness (i.e. being suddently distracted), so-called automatic behaviours momentarily fall by the wayside.

If this moment happens just as one were to drop the mag -and we don't drop it- the very next move is to return to the next step in our interrupted programming....which is when a fresh round gets racked into the chamber.

Every screw-up I've done -whether that be firearms, tool or motor vehicle related- was done by me while not fully 'in the moment' as Fred puts it.

edit: Anyone here care to suggest how best to 'return to the moment' after one was distracted, say by something totally unexpected?
 
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Jeff is thinking the way I'm starting to about pulling triggers and dropping hammers, I'm not sure it accomplishes much. I know you have too with certain models, but if you don't have to, why do it?
And you always start by dropping that mag to clear, bet he won't forget that again. Lesson learned (albeit the hard way).
 
Telling novice gun owners to carry with the chamber loaded is bad advice; it is willingly ignoring human nature. Telling somebody he should have trained and practiced more after he has negligently discharged his gun isn't helpful.

There is a reason every single gun manual has wording to the effect of "never carry with the chamber loaded." More people buy pistols than take NRA training courses. More people are trying to self-educate than ever before.

The average new gun-owner today is an adult, who was an anti-gunnie, and enough stupid seeped out that he realized that owning a gun is a good idea. He doesn't have the benefit of military service, or competent family to teach him. If any of his friends are competent with guns, they are careful to conceal this information. The average new gun-owner goes online, reads, makes a decision on what gun to buy. If it is a woman - they probably take a gun safety class before buying a gun. Months later, when they buy the gun, they retain 10-15% of what was taught in the class. If it is a man - they probably buy the gun first, and think about taking a class.

Sites, such at THR, would better serve their own interests by having more sticky threads for brand-new gun owners. THR members would serve their own interests by not showing such disdain for anyone not yet ready to carry a loaded gun.
 
In addition to using a standardized process every single time, and understanding the 4 rules (especially "Safe Direction" and "Finger Off Trigger") I suggest using a "hard register" finger position:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7OZfgutNufU#t=53s

From the late Paul Gomez.

That includes other good bits of info but notice his finger position in the ejection port. Even people who are adamant about safe gun handling have been observed trigger-checking the gun in FOF classes... the idea here is to have a tactile confirmation of the position of the trigger finger that holds up under stress.

Another view:
3065533676_f848b6eecc.jpg
 
It seems like most negligent discharges happen due to trained people becoming complacent rather than lack of training.
 
Greg, new gun owners don't need prior military or police experience to carry or store a gun with a round in the chamber and ready to function. Sort of like the way you keep gas in your car tank Instead of draining the tank until the next time you drive. Thats a personal choice that doesnt require permission or justification. And sites like thr are doing just fine with beginners, look at the threads where new members are provided with solid advice from mods and other members.
 
Posted by Grey_Mana: Telling novice gun owners to carry with the chamber loaded is bad advice; it is willingly ignoring human nature.
Click to expand...
Telling anyone to carry a gun for self defense without a round in the chamber is very questionable advice indeed.

Telling somebody he should have trained and practiced more after he has negligently discharged his gun isn't helpful.
Click to expand...
Telling people who carry a firearm that they should train and practice is very good advice indeed.

More people buy pistols than take NRA training courses. More people are trying to self-educate than ever before.
Click to expand...
And that's not good.

The average new gun-owner today is an adult, who was an anti-gunnie, and enough stupid seeped out that he realized that owning a gun is a good idea.
Click to expand...
Do you have a basis for that irrelevant assertion?

Sites, such at THR, would better serve their own interests by having more sticky threads for brand-new gun owners.
Click to expand...
Have you looked at the sticky threads in ST&T?

THR members would serve their own interests by not showing such disdain for anyone not yet ready to carry a loaded gun.
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"Such disdain"? Look: the incident cited in the OP is a prime example of unsafe gun handling. Some posters have said as much.

It is essential that people handle firearms, nail guns, chainsaws and other cutting tools, automobile jacks, space heaters, caustic and flammable materials, explosives, and radio transmitters and electrical devices safely.
 
This should serve as a textbook lesson on trusting your decocker and absolutely positively NOT pull the trigger unless you are ok with hearing a bang instead of a click. This kind of procedure for clearing a weapon shouldn't be used outside of IDPA. In fact I think it's foolish, an empty chamber is empty, especially after visual determination by the SO and yourself.

Safety works best in layers. For that particular firearm and several like it, the decocker is there for a reason. USE IT. It shouldn't matter if you have unloaded in the proper sequence, but a decocker adds a layer, and it's a pretty damn good one.
 
NavyLCDR said:
It seems like most negligent discharges happen due to trained people becoming complacent rather than lack of training.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is my take. It is the people that unload day after day who are doing it as a routine they could do with thier eyes closed who eventually make a mistake because they have completely lost the discomfort they should have while handling a loaded gun. So they give it no more than the absolute minimum of attention while they think about other things, or joke about the days events, or talk or think about what they are doing after work. Police unloading and loading duty weapons at the station every day for example.

Just like most car accidents happen within a few miles of home, even for people that commute long distances. They know the road so well and every turn in it that they are driving on autopilot and giving little actual concentration to observation.


You have to retain discomfort in handling a firearm when discharging it would be undesireable. Give attention to actually inspecting the chamber and action, not just cycling it on autopilot while going through the motions and thinking about other things.
 
Some firearms, especially striker fired pistols, do not have a way of safetly decocking the weapon without pulling the trigger. Namely Glocks and XD. I have an XD and I am a little more cautious when taking that apart for that very reason.
 
However his was not STF- rather PCR with a decocker.

The BEST thing I learned from this discussion myself is that there no need whatsoever to pull the trigger when there is a decocker.
 
Don't trust decockers either. Some models are better than others.
With a working firing pin block, and similar modern safety that move with the trigger it can be safer to drop the hammer without touching the trigger than otherwise, but you are still dropping something with enough force to discharge the firearm.
There has been plenty of recalls on defective guns as well as issues with worn guns using decockers that you should consider using one only a little safer than pulling the trigger.
There has also been some firearms that would discharge when the safety was disengaged, especially those given a better trigger by bubba, as it slightly engages the trigger on some designs.

Pointing in a safe direction when manipulating any control is the best course of action.
 
The Four Commandments of gun safety:

1. Always assume all guns are always loaded always.

2. Never point the gun at something that you don't have the intent to put a bullet through.

3.Never put your finger on the trigger until you have proper sight-picture.

4. Always confirm your target and whats behind it.

Follow those four rules to the letter, and there shouldn't be any problems of NDs, or serious injuries. The longer an individual is around guns the higher the chance of some type of discharge; it's just part of the hobby, but there is no excuse for anyone getting hurt.
 
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Telling novice gun owners to carry with the chamber loaded is bad advice; it is willingly ignoring human nature. Telling somebody he should have trained and practiced more after he has negligently discharged his gun isn't helpful.
Click to expand...

Novice gun owners shouldn't be carrying a gun at all untill they are competent with their gun, and this includes safety competency.

You don't tell people to just head down to the gunshop, buy a gun/ammo, load her up and strap it to your hip without being able to handle the weapon with respect and safety.
 
To paraphrase Clint Smith, "Keep your stupid finger off the stupid trigger until your sights are on the target and you have made the decision to shoot."

lather, rinse,repeat

:banghead:
 
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