Loading 9mm bullets in 38 special

[NoirFan]

Are you sure those are Full Metal Jacket bullets? Looking at the bullets shown in the picture, they appear to be copper plated lead bullets (also known as Full Metal Case or Total Metal Case) bullets. If so, they generally use load data for cast lead bullets rather than jacketed bullets.

They were sold as: 9mm 124gr TMJ PULLED , so total metal jacket. The bases are covered in copper. I'll start with mild lead data and work up.

 

[ray15]

I could not get adequate bullet pull for 9mm bullets in .38 special, even with no expander plug.

You can use the Lee undersize 38 special resizing die, or just use the standard 9mm Luger one. As far as I can tell they are the same excepting the part number.

 

[Jim Watson]

It was just a passing fancy for me. I have real .38 bullets and can buy more.

I also have some fake .38 bullets without the traditional crimp groove. OK, I have a .38 taper crimp die.

 

[627PCFan]

I tried this several years ago. Every case split at the neck. Accuracy was ok but also very dirty

 

[Toprudder]

If they are listed as TMJ, they are quite possibly Speer bullets. I may be wrong, but I think they are the only manufacturer that uses TMJ designation. They are supposed to be thicker plating than most plated bullets, and their load data treats them the same as FMJ.

If you decide you need more neck tension than you get with 38spl dies, I suppose you could use a 9mm sizing die, adjusted up high so it only sizes the top section of the case where the bullet will seat. You could also use a 9mm expander.

 

[Walkalong]

First try the .38 sizer and no expander to see if you can get adequate neck tension. If you try a 9MM sizer you will overwork the brass IMHO.

If that doesn't work, you'll simply need to buy a 9MM pistol. No excuse not to these days, as the Ruger 9e was $250 shipped the other day, not sure the free shipping still applies, but it is still $250.

https://www.cdnnsports.com/rugerr-9er-9mm.html#.Wm3uynxMGM8

 

[Walkalong]

You can use the Lee undersize 38 special resizing die, or just use the standard 9mm Luger one. As far as I can tell they are the same excepting the part number.

I would have to check new ones, but the older Lee 9MM carbide sizer has a long tapered insert. Best 9MM sizer I have. Maybe someone who has both can check them out.

 

[Jim Watson]

Although the nominal 9mm bullet diameter is smaller than .38 Special, the case neck diameter is LARGER, thicker brass for automatics.
So I doubt a 9mm die will reduce a .38 case at all.
Try a .380 sizing die.

 

[ray15]

I would have to check new ones, but the older Lee 9MM carbide sizer has a long tapered insert. Best 9MM sizer I have. Maybe someone who has both can check them out.

I have both. I just ran some cases through them, and you are right the 9mm one is tapered.

First try the .38 sizer and no expander to see if you can get adequate neck tension. If you try a 9MM sizer you will overwork the brass IMHO.

Interestingly, the Lee undersize 38 special die works the brass hard, but the 9mm luger one is easy on it. But the tapered insert does lessen the resizing nearer to the rim, and the 38 cases sized in the 9mm die are just barely under SAAMI max diameter 1/4 or 3/8" up from the rim. They fit my GP100's cylinders fine but are a just a bit tight in my Hornady minimum chamber gauge.

Although the nominal 9mm bullet diameter is smaller than .38 Special, the case neck diameter is LARGER, thicker brass for automatics.
So I doubt a 9mm die will reduce a .38 case at all.
Try a .380 sizing die.

I just ran identical fired RP 38 special cases through the following Lee resizing dies - standard 38 special, 9mm luger, and their undersized 38 special one. I've gone a few samples and the approximate measured OD of the case mouths after resizing is:

std 38 - 0.374"
9mm - 0.372"
undersized .38 - 0.370"

I bought the Lee undersize die as Lee advertises it as .002" smaller than the standard one, which would put it right with the 9mm one. In practice my undersize 38 is .004" smaller than the standard unit, and as such does overwork the brass and appears about useless. I wanted a true .001 or .002" reduction to increase case mouth tension with the thinner 38 cases I have. I've used the 9mm die successfully with 38 cases before, it would still be my recommendation for using .355" projectiles in 38 cases. At worst you may need to run them through the standard 38 die also to size the body, or use the FCD to knock the body sizing down a bit - although I did neither.

 

[Toprudder]

Although the nominal 9mm bullet diameter is smaller than .38 Special, the case neck diameter is LARGER, thicker brass for automatics.
So I doubt a 9mm die will reduce a .38 case at all.
Try a .380 sizing die.

Dang, good point. I’m going to have to try it now, just to see.

I see Ray15 beat me too it!

 

[Walkalong]

std 38 - 0.374"
9mm - 0.372"
undersized .38 - 0.370"

That works out great for your needs. Naturally with machining tolerances they won't always line up that way.

 

[Walkalong]

Just did some carbide insert ID checking using +.0000/-.0002 Pin Gauges

Dillon .38 Spl sizer (Retired because it did not give sufficient neck tension.)
.372 Go, .373 No Go

RCBS .38 Spl sizer. (I use it for .38 Spl and .357 Mag)
.371 Go, .372 No Go

Lee 9MM sizer (Long tapered insert. Sizes cases prettier than the Redding, doesn't leave such a bulge down low.)
.372 Go, .373 No Go

RCBS .38 S&W sizer
.372 Go, .373 No Go

Lee .38 Auto "U" sizer
.374 Go, .375 No Go

I have a couple of old Lee ".38" sizers I did not check. At least one of these was retired for the "U" die because it didn't size .38 Super cases enough. I have been meaning to try the Dillon .38 Spl sizer for .38 Super, but have not yet tried it. It may be too tight, and the .38 Auto "U" die is working fine. (Besides, I may have already tried it and ruled it out, and just can't remember. *Sigh*)

 

[Walkalong]

Although the nominal 9mm bullet diameter is smaller than .38 Special, the case neck diameter is LARGER, thicker brass for automatics.
So I doubt a 9mm die will reduce a .38 case at all.
Try a .380 sizing die.

Dang it, I knew I was forgetting one.

RCBS .380 sizer
.366 Go, .367 No Go

Big difference.

 

[ray15]

Just did some carbide insert ID checking using +.0000/-.0002 Pin Gauges

I've always had precision measuring tools, but never any pin gauges. Looks like time to invest - I'm finding having a range of sizing die diameters important. Any tips on buying these?

RCBS .38 Spl sizer. (I use it for .38 Spl and .357 Mag)
.371 Go, .372 No Go

Is this the carbide or standard version? It sounds like it may be a touch smaller than my Lee 38 special standard size die. It just needs to be .001" smaller where the Lee 9mm is .002" smaller and the Lee undersize .38 special .004". At least as far as I can tell without pin gauges.

 

[Walkalong]

Is this the carbide or standard version?

Carbide. Don't bet on another one being exactly the same. I went through three others (Redding, Dillon, Lee) before buying the RCBS that cured my neck tension issues.

I have had two carbide RCBS .45 ACP sizers, one Lyman, and Two Reddings, all different IDs. The first RCBS was too loose for RP brass, they sent me another one free, but it was so tight the rounds looked wasp shaped. Great neck tension! I bought a Redding, and it was perfect, but the carbide ring came out. They replaced it but it would leave a ridge near the case head. Redding told me (Insisted) I had it adjusted down too far, so I bought a Lyman, which I still use. Redding dropped off the "preferred" list. RCBS still remains on the list.

 

[Officers'Wife]

I wonder if you used a taper drill to get into the lead of the base if the bullet would expand enough to fully engage the lands a la minie ball back in the civil war days...

 

[Tilos]

I've always had precision measuring tools, but never any pin gauges. Looks like time to invest - I'm finding having a range of sizing die diameters important. Any tips on buying these?
Is this the carbide or standard version? It sounds like it may be a touch smaller than my Lee 38 special standard size die. It just needs to be .001" smaller where the Lee 9mm is .002" smaller and the Lee undersize .38 special .004". At least as far as I can tell without pin gauges.

I don't have pin gauges but find a set of half ball-small bore hole gauges most useful.
The most common sets contain 5 gauges and cover a range of 1/8" to 1/2".
https://www.bing.com/shop?q=small+h...-20&sk=&cvid=F27461644A544B8E8559D31DCC85506F
works for me

 

[Blue68f100]

I've got those bore gauges by Starret, very seldom use them. The pin gauges come in set or individually. I have 2 sets 0.060-0.250", .251-.500". all in the minus (-0.0002). I use the pin gauges a lot on measuring holes. Pretty sure my sets came from china due to the cost being low. If I recall I got the smaller set off Amazon, and the larger set from a machine shop supply place. Both sets combined was under $100 close to $75 so their not very expensive unless you get the harden sets.

 

[NoirFan]

So I wanted to revisit this thread and share my findings. I worked up to a load of 4.8gr Hp38 and a standard Winchester small pistol primer which seemed to give best accuracy. Neck tension was indeed sometimes a problem with the tapered, undersized bullet, and I ended up scrapping about 10 rounds out of 300 because I could actually push the bullet into the case with my finger.

Accuracy was basically what I expected, which is to say nothing special. I was getting 5-6" groups at 25 yards off the rest. The shots also struck about 4" lower than my regular 158gr heavy practice loads. Good enough to shoot gallon jugs off a fence but I wouldn't load these for any kind of serious use. This load also makes quite a large star-shaped flash but burns very clean. I will say that the tapered 9MM bullet and short 38 special case makes speedloader drills a breeze.



All in all, I'm not sure I would repeat this experiment unless I got another really great sale price on these bullets.

Thanks for reading

 

[rsrocket1]

This load also makes quite a large star-shaped flash but burns very clean.

That's probably all the gas products escaping past the bullet then igniting when it hits the outside air past the barrel. Fun for effect, but be sure to check your barrel for copper fouling if you shoot a lot of these. Your bullets are probably getting some gas cutting but at least it won't be lead deposits in the barrel.

 

[someguy2800]

I loaded a whole bunch of 115 gr 9mm hp in 38 special a few years ago. They worked just fine and were accurate. I didn't do anything special to load them.