Loading Above Manufacturer's Recommendations

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You need to get to a point where you not only know what to do, but why you're doing it.

...and what might go wrong if you DO do it.

But, the OP is already on this path, I think. He didn't just accept the previous owner's word for it, he bought a manual, noticed a potential problem, and went looking for input from still other sources to check his own assumptions and see if he could learn more. Always question, that's the process.
 
...and what might go wrong if you DO do it.

But, the OP is already on this path, I think. He didn't just accept the previous owner's word for it, he bought a manual, noticed a potential problem, and went looking for input from still other sources to check his own assumptions and see if he could learn more. Always question, that's the process.

Oh, definitely no stupidity going on here. I just feel for the guy. He stepped into a custom firearm that can't shoot factory. Man, oh man. Now, he may have to rebarrel. That also means that whatever load he got handed to him is worthless because It's unlikely that the load he was given will work with the other two barrels. I hope the OP is prepared...for fun that is. I hope he has a chrony, a good scope, a good front and rear rest, blah, blah, blah....and a lot of time.
 
So, my question, is it safe to go above recommended max loads?

Two keys words there. "Recommended" and "Max".

Folks with more knowledge and experience, with proper testing equipment, come up with published recipes. They decide on a max powder charge for a reason. That reason is safety.

Re-read your question and you should have your answer.

While there are variables to what exactly determines max in an individual firearm, most published recipes have a "margin of error" figured in. That's so regular folks can safely load ammunition for the average random firearm. I'd assume the guy with the world records and is loading over max, did not start by being reckless. I, like others here, recommend you do the same. He may also, thru years of experience, had a legitimate reason to go over max. Do you?
 
Those 1 caliber books are just reprints of many sources and it's usually old data.

What are you going to use this rifle for? If it's hunting decided on a good hunting bullet and check the manual from that company. Then work up your own loads. It's usually the best way to go. The bullets that came with the rifle are not suitable for hunting, they are target bullets.

Hi, this will be a target rifle only, it has a 2 ounce trigger and no safety. I was hoping the load data would be new, but it's last printing was in 2016.
 
Hi Everyone,

First, I'd like to thank everyone for all of the great advice you have all given me. I will read and reread everything over the next couple of days to get it all absorbed.

I got in touch with the guy today and talked with him for over 30 minutes. He definitely wants me to be safe and enjoy the rifle for years, but he told me that the max loads are always very conservative, because they have to account for old rifles, bad steel and lawsuits.

He told me that he made that load mostly for 1,000 yard matches, because the bullet must stay supersonic beyond the target. He said he considers the load to be a "warm load" not hot. He said it is a common load for long range shooters with 215 Bergers at that distance. He said 2,800 isn't really pushing the envelope. He told me that I could go to 60 grains and work from there, since I mostly will be shooting 100 and 200 yard matches at my local club. But will that cause issues, since I have to keep the same COAL, which gives me 0.015 jump to the rifling, and the case having so much empty space?
 
he told me that the max loads are always very conservative, because they have to account for old rifles, bad steel and lawsuits.
More bad advise. Be safe out there. You are nowhere near ready to load over max, even a little bit, as you are just starting your journey into reloading. Even folks who have loaded for decades rarely go over max, at least safe reloaders don't.

Labs test this stuff with sophisticated equipment, use it to be safe. Using the old "data is lawyered up" excuse to load over max is a bad idea.
 
My neighbor asked me a question a year ago on loading his 7mm Mag. A friend of his that shoots long range competition told him the load spec he uses. It was over max by 3 gr but the bullet length was over .2" longer which gave the case more volume. My advice to him was that he's shooting a stock gun with a very long jump to leads + 0.200"? . Your friend is shooting a custom built gun and the 2 are not the same. I suggested to him start low, set the OAL to what the mfg suggest or max that will fit the magazine. He went with magazine length. Then work up the load starting low in .5 gr intervals, looking for over pressure signs. We shot them over my crony so we could compare to published loads. He ended up about 1 gr over Max, but is bullet length was .1" over published, with no high pressure signs. Velocity was right on par with what was published at the shorter length.

Any time you change the case capacity you change the pressure with the same powder charge. Then a lot of competition shooter push things over the limit, knowing they will only get 1 firing and the primer pocket will be loose. VERY DANGEROUS and NOT RECOMMENDED. They also shoot out there barrels very quickly.

You have gotten a lot of good advice here. With the very tight chamber that requires necks to be turned it will be easy on the necks due to less expansion. Stay within Published Data, by starting low and working up till you find the accuracy node for you barrel. Normally there are 2 nodes, 1 low and 1 high. Since your only shooting to 200 yrds it's your choice.
 
I could run QuickLOAD, and I did which is why I said:

climbnjump said:
It might even be at or slightly under SAAMI max pressure.

That kind of puts a dent in the over pressure argument.

I do agree with all of the caution posts though, the attitude of staying inside the lines is generally safer that going outside them.

The rifle we are talking about was manufactured in a way that it could chamber a round that is longer than others might be able to. So then it comes down to what manufacturer you are going to go to for data.
 
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I got in touch with the guy today and talked with him for over 30 minutes. He definitely wants me to be safe and enjoy the rifle for years, but he told me that the max loads are always very conservative, because they have to account for old rifles, bad steel and lawsuits.

The United States does not have the proof testing requirements that Europe has and so ammunition manufacturer's do have to load considering that there are a bunch of antiques around. Of the European Proof laws I have read, not only do new firearms under proof testing, every time an old one is sold, rebarreled, or significantly modified in some structure way, the things get proof tested. Proof testing is more than sticking in a 30% over load, the proof test house inspects the firearm for wear and function. The pre 1968 German proof test laws, if the firearm failed one particular, it was destroyed. That upset owners when something like a safety failure lead to their favorite boom stick being cut into pieces! The law was changed so the offending item was removed. But the owner could not sell it until it passed proof.

These laws were put into place for two specific reasons. The first is obvious. They want to get the relics out of circulation. I believe there was a secondary reason:increase sales of new firearms. An owner of an old boom stick has the risk of the firearm and his fee going away after proof test. Loss aversion is real, and that would make owner ship and transfer of old relics less palatable over time. I mean, how do you know that you can sell the rifle?, it might fail the next inspection.

Let me take the example of old Mauser rifles. Through WW1 the service charge for 7mm and 8mm rifles was 43,000 psia, and they broke, when new. We do know from historical records lugs cracked on new M98 service rifles. Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter writes that the bolt lugs broke on 1:1000 of GEW98 service rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp! This was when the cartridge pressure was 43,000 psia.

US ammunition companies have to take this into account when reloading 7mm or 8mm Mauser cartridges. Very few individuals know enough not to stuff high pressure ammunition into their relic military rifle.

Modern cartridges and rifles are made out of modern alloys. Anyone claiming that a factory 300 Win Mag is underloaded because of all the antique rifles around is delusional. The 300 Win Mag is a post WW2 creation and as a class, I have no issues with post WW2 steels made in first world countries. Communistic block is something else.

He told me that he made that load mostly for 1,000 yard matches, because the bullet must stay supersonic beyond the target. He said he considers the load to be a "warm load" not hot. He said it is a common load for long range shooters with 215 Bergers at that distance. He said 2,800 isn't really pushing the envelope. He told me that I could go to 60 grains and work from there, since I mostly will be shooting 100 and 200 yard matches at my local club. But will that cause issues, since I have to keep the same COAL, which gives me 0.015 jump to the rifling, and the case having so much empty space?

Clay Spencer build rifles on modern actions so that is good. What you do know is that the original owner ran his loads hot, probably up to the point that he was just under sticking extraction and blown case heads. We also know, he does not have pressure equipment. He does not know the pressures of his cartridges and because the rifle did not blow up in front of his face, he feels the load is safe. It is safe in the same fashion as the guy who falls out of the airplane without a parachute. He is perfectly safe till he hits the ground. It is hard to argue with characters like this as they operate in ignorance, and until such time as their head hits the pavement, they won't admit standing on the seat of the motorcycle is dangerous. What he does not know about the pressures of his cartridge, the number of hot rounds till lug cracking, is more than what he actually knows.

Even if the bullet is seated way out into the throat, creating more volume than usual, if the velocities are higher than book, then the pressures are higher than book. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

But, if you want to compete with the thing, crank the loads up, such as the original owner, and occasionally measure the headspace to see if it is growing, and examine the lugs for signs of cracking. And if the rifle does not blow up before you see something like this,

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than lucky you.

I do know from a shooter who had a cracked lug, what happens afterward is very dependent on good gas venting and luck. One of the Range Masters at CMP Talladega had a lug crack on a 2016 mfgr Rem M700 action in 260 Win. When the cracked lug was sectioned, "pits" were found in the metal. I suspect those pits were bubbles, the steel was defective. The rifle had 4000 rounds through it and then one lug cracked and the case head blew. The bolt could only be removed after the barrel was removed from the action. Even though the steel was defective, Remington walked away since the rifle had custom work. Due to the design of the M700 the shooter's face remained intact, and so did the rest of his body. Mike Walker designed a very safe rifle in this regard. I know the bolt was toast, and probably the receiver was suspect afterwards. But, given other action designs, other circumstances, catastrophic failures of fire arms have caused serious injuries.

And the Range Master said he was not buying another Remington rifle. And I don't blame him. What the incident shows is the outsourcing of Quality Control and Inspection at source and poor sub contractor over sight. The steel supplier had to know the materials were substandard if not defective, and shipped it anyway, because the buyer had no way of knowing better!
 
He told me that I could go to 60 grains and work from there, since I mostly will be shooting 100 and 200 yard matches at my local club. But will that cause issues, since I have to keep the same COAL, which gives me 0.015 jump to the rifling, and the case having so much empty space?

If you are going to stick with IMR 4350, I wouldn't go as low as 60 gr to start, 62 gr might be better. Pressures with 60 gr at your existing COAL might be too low to get a consistent burn rate from round to round and accuracy will suffer as a result. With 62 gr, your cartridge fill rate will be about 82%. Some folks consider 80% to be the low end for consistent ignition and burn rates.

The Berger hybrids which you are using, are more tolerant of jump than the VLDs so you could consider seating deeper to get a better fill, but quite frankly you probably wouldn't want to seat deeper enough to make much difference. And now you would be changing two things at once - powder charge and jump. That might make it harder to tell what is affecting what.

But if he told you the original spec was a .015 jump at your COAL and the barrel now has 1000 rounds through it, your actual jump is quite a bit more than that already.

The other thing to consider is changing powder to something that would give you a better fill. While IMR 4350 was working for the fellow who sold you the rifle, I think there are better choices for your application.

Since you are using Berger bullets, give those folks a call and tell them what you've got. They are very knowledgeable and will want you to do well with their bullets. Ask them for powder and start charge recommendations.
 
Quite frankly, I would be much more inclined to go with the load recommended by the previous owner than by the "one caliber manual" referenced by the OP. One reason being that the manual is obviously incomplete and apparently compiled by someone who was selective and/or incompetent in his recommended loads. Even a brief survey of common shooting guides discloses that the manual's reported "max" load of 62gr IMR4350 is typically closer to starting loads for bullets of similar or even heavier weights. The .300 Win Mag is a modern high intensity caliber with normal operating pressures in the 60-65K range, which is about the pressure level developed by the original owner's recommended load. I say this with the experience of quite a few years handloading the .300 WM for the target rifles I've used in 1000 yard competitions. A couple of them are one built by Jim Cloward on Shilen DGA action, and another built on Pre-64 M-70 action.. DSC_0263.JPG
 
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I would be much more inclined to go with the load recommended by the previous owner ...

I say this with the experience of quite a few years handloading the .300 WM for the target rifles I've used in 1000 yard competitions.
With all due respect, YOU can make such claim for YOUR rifles with YOUR reloading/handloading skills from years of YOUR experience.
... survey of common shooting guides
OP apparently has only one published load data from 2016 (One Caliber One Book) and hence asking questions because seller told him to use 6 gr beyond that published load data for 215 gr bullet (Which would raise concern/red flag for many).

Besides, why are "High Road" members telling a new reloader member to THR to use over max published load data when there is no need for the OP to do so?

Let's look at OP's application of this load.
this will be a target rifle only ... I mostly will be shooting 100 and 200 yard matches at my local club.
So for target shooting at 100-200 yards, OP needs a load that will remain supersonic to target and published load data OP has will do that without having to go over published max charge.

... he made that load mostly for 1,000 yard matches, because the bullet must stay supersonic beyond the target/QUOTE]
Seller was using beyond published max charge due to need for 215 gr bullet to remain supersonic after traveling 1000 yards. Since you are only shooting at 100-200 yards, there's no need to go over published max charge as bullet would still remain supersonic to target at 100-200 yards. You only needs to conduct powder work up using published start/max charges to identify low/high accuracy nodes.
 
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Hi Everyone,

Thank you all again for all of the information and advice. I have ordered the load book from Berger and I will be starting load development for a new load from it, since most of my shots will be 100-200 yards and not 1,000.

The great thing about the rifle is that it came with an extra bolt for the 308 case family, so I may only be over gunning the 100 yard matches for the next year, while saving up for a 30BR barrel.

I want to thank everyone again for taking the time to help me understand all the complexities of reloading for this. It goes way beyond loading for my regular ammo, with so many variables.

I want to assure everyone that was concerned for my safety that I will always go the safe road, nothing is worth risking life or limb for a few extra FPS. And though I'd like to think of myself as an amazing shooter, I'd consider myself lucky to place in the top 5 in local matches, so no world record attempts are in my future.

Thank you all, Scott
 
Since you are only shooting at 100-200 yards, there's no need to go over published max charge as bullet would still remain supersonic to target at 100-200 yards. You only needs to conduct powder work up using published start/max charges to identify low/high accuracy nodes.
That is a very good point.
 
Hi Everyone,

Thank you all again for all of the information and advice. I have ordered the load book from Berger and I will be starting load development for a new load from it, since most of my shots will be 100-200 yards and not 1,000.

The great thing about the rifle is that it came with an extra bolt for the 308 case family, so I may only be over gunning the 100 yard matches for the next year, while saving up for a 30BR barrel.

If you are going that short a 6mm PPC is a good choice. You can expect the same "over book" load data from the winners though/

As an example, in his book, The Book of Rifle Accuracy, Tony Boyer, used N133 pushing 68 grain bullets with his lightest load above Vihtavuori's maximum load for 6mm PPC but they used the only factory rifle chambered in 6mm ppc, not the ones he shoots with.
 
I was thinking about going with a 6mm, but the matches here are point matches, going for 250 points, not smallest group size, so you get a slight advantage with a .30 over 6mm because it is bigger. But I haven't done enough research to see if the 30BR stabilizes at those short ranges better than the 6mmBR. So many variables, so many choices. That won't be until next year at the earliest anyway.
 
I have held back a while pondering how I was going to respond to this post. I believe that you need to run your own independent pressure test. This is a standardized test that "we" all run while reload for rifle. You will have to roll with your test results and choose how your goals mitigate the risks you take. I know what my rifles loads are and when I see pressure signs. If you are running 1-200 yards I cant even see running the cartridge your shooting. The ppc rules in these ranges and a br or brx runs the show to 600. You run the risks and if you got a gun designed to run to 1k and are not running that range there is no reason to take any risk. My mind says you are king of your castle and running above max in a caliber not optimal for the mission is just foolish.
 
If you compete you are generally leaving the realm of published load data behind and relying on your own skills and the feedback from fellow competitors to develop your loads.

Knowing how to evaluate pressure sighs is critical to any hand loader, but it’s especially true to those who push the boundaries of their loads and equipment for competitive purposes.

To use an analogy, the OP bought a hot rodded rifle from a hot rod racer. If he only wants to putt down to the corner store once a week he doesn’t need to drive it 350mph.

If he ever does want to see what it’s capable of, the original owners instructions and load data would be valuable, as long as the OP knows his limits and realizes the risks.

I shoot in F Class competitions. There’s not a single competitive shooter I know of that isn’t running their loads over some published max. For some, there is no published data to be had because their chambers aren’t made to any SAAMI spec.

Again, the OP bought one of those rifles. It sounds like a really nice one too. It should be a lot of fun learning it’s capabilities and limits, just make sure to be safe, methodical and responsible
 
So, my question, is it safe to go above recommended max loads? His data is 68 grains IMR 4350 and a 215 Berger Hybrid, at 2,800 fps.

I don't really know how to answer this question. With my experience I would start lower and cautiously work up to the previous owners load. But I can't publicly suggest that you do that.

I competed at long range for a while ( was not a record holder ) and used a custom rifle with a tight neck chamber in a non-standard caliber. After the caliber was standardized my load was 3 grains over the book max. I had none of the normal pressure signs. No sticky bolt lift, no primers signs, no excessive case head expansion, no nothing. A batch of cases would last an entire season, including practice in-between matches. So I was not concerned but I would not recommend that load to others.

It sounds like you have a nice rifle and I hope you enjoy it.
 
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