Loading the Bullet pointed side in.

[Beak50]

I've read that in WW1 German snipers would pull the bullet out and put in backwards to shoot at the steel plate our snipers were hiding behind.I guess this would cause fragments of the plate to fly off everywhere wounding and or blinding the guy behind it.Has anyone ever heard of or tried this?As far as I know they kept the same powder charge ect..I would think doing this would make it very in accurate but who know's.I don't think I'll be doing it at allI just want to know if it is possible and if they really did it.

 

[helotaxi]

Not so much a hit in accuracy as a hit in range. The bullet turned around has the ballistic coefficient of a brick. Not sure about the physics of the spalling or why having the base of the bullet impact first would make a difference in that regard, especially considering that the energy would be less thanks to the awful BC.

 

[Sam1911]

Everything has been tried by someone somewhere. Reversing a bullet to shoot base-forward isn't likely to produce very accurate shots. Pulling and re-seating a bullet without precision equipment to do it (like a real reloading press) is likely to produce ammo that would be too inconsistent to hit much at all.

Lead-core bullets that hit armor plate splatter. (If they don't penetrate.) Doesn't matter at all which way they're going when they hit.

It would be possible to do. Some may have done it. (Doubt there's much documented evidence, but maybe.) Far more likely that this was one of thousands of trench- (and later, VFW-hall-) rumors GIs told each other about their foes.

There were many which were much more appalling that this. And many of those were true.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I saw something on the history channel about this.

 

[918v]

Some people load bullets backwards just to be contrary.

 

[rcmodel]

Sounds like BS to me, for several reasons.

1. Snipers are generally very interested in hitting what they shoot at.
A backward seated bullet would tend to destabilize due to very high drag and balance issues, and would likely tumble at range. Accuracy would suffer.

2. A backward bullet, if it remained stable, would be going slower at the target due to increased drag, and so would produce less spalling.

3. If it did tumble, it would be as likely to hit sideways or point first as it would be to hit base first. If it hit sideways, there would probably be no spalling at all.

rc

 

[kingmt]

I would say possible.

Some people turn the shorter bullets around when doing reduced loads because they say it groups better & by by slowing it down it holds together better for more penetration.

If it has a steel core then the jacket could break open the plate & when it got stuck in the plate the soft lead would let lose of the steal core to keep traveling.

All of this is just guessing because I don't know what they used but this is basically the design of what they called cop killers. Our military also uses a bullet something like this to take out a tank for the 50 Cal. I think it is a tungsten core that is copper plated with a steel jacket. The design may not be quit right because it has been a long time since I read about it but you get the idea.

 

[rcmodel]

the soft lead would let lose of the steal core

The soft lead & jacket of a common rifle bullet vaporizes instantly when it hits a steel plate. That turns all the bullet energy into heat. The heat melts & vaporizes the steel too.

If the steel is not too thick, the bullet will burn on through.
If it is too thick, you will get a rounded pocket in the steel with a ragged edge turned back toward the shooter.
If the steel is hardened, you may also get spalling on the inside of the plate.

If there is a steel or tunstan core, the core will continue to penetrate the steel as far as it's momentum will allow.
But the lead & jacket will be a puff of gray smoke drifting in the wind.

rc

 

[dudlee]

I wanted to try loading some 200gr lead RN upside down for my 45 LC Uberti pistol.. Cant find any Wad cutters for sale and I like the nice holes they make in paper at 15 yards.. Any one have an idea on OAL and starting grains for TiteGroup?

 

[BADUNAME37]

It would seem to me that the hot gases from burning powder and explosion during detonation would tend to 'wedge' toward the barrel as a result of this cone-shaped thing now that the gases must push against. It would seem that the gases would want to move outwardly just as an ax splits wood! Excessive gasses directed toward the inside of the barrel would cause premature wear, I would think (I could be dead wrong here). I would suppose that there may also be some gases "slipping by" the cone-shaped base!

 

[fguffey]

"Sounds like BS to me, for several reasons"

and in my opinion none of your reasons are good, BECAUSE! it happened, the story did not start with "Once upon a time..." or "You are not going to believe this......" Before, we are not talking baseball like 'In the big inning' but before AP, armor piercing, bullets were turned around and worked effectively against 'the troops' that were using metal plates in front of their face, the plate when hit with a pointed bullet absorbed the impact and the bullet upset, But, when the flat end of the bullet hit the plate the person/troop behind the plate suffered injury and often was blinded blinded by the the metal popping off in the form of a scale, AND there were troops that turned the bullet around when they wanted to get a good start on cleaning their rifle, and in my opinion, that was/is a bad habit.

As to snipers.....?

 

[Joe Demko]

and in my opinion none of your reasons are good, BECAUSE! it happened,

A cite of some kind, please? Any kind? After action report? Memoirs of a soldier who did this? Photographs showing the difference on actual steel plate? An article from Stars and Stripes? Anything?

 

[Wolfman Bill]

Afternoon Beak50

I guess I can’t see the advantage in reversing the bullet on a full power load. About only thing I can think of is if shooting at sloped surfaces as maybe less glance off’s

I have from time to time loaded boat tail bullets backwards to improve subsonic grouping at 100meters or less. It does change the POI a fair bit even at subsonic velocities.

At subsonic velocities the point to the rear seems to “sometimes” help obtain a bit more stable flight with some bullet/powder combinations.

Once they go supersonic then point forward seems to be the way to go.

I don’t do it much anymore as I reload my brass & with the point to the rear seems to really shorten the case neck life due to split necks.

 

[fguffey]

"). I would suppose that there may also be some gases "slipping by" the cone-shaped base!"



And I am going to tell you there is gas passing the bullet on cone (concave) shaped based bullets, flat base bullets and gas escaping past the bullet before it the bullet leaves the barrel with gas checks, high speed cameras have eliminated all doubt.



First picture of gas escaping the barrel first was recorded in the mid teens, the picture recorded the events before the projectile left the barrel, too fast to see, the event recorded moisture becoming visible due to compression, anyhow, they had to re-think the events.



F. Guffey

 

[rcmodel]

BECAUSE! it happened,

Were you there with the Germans?

Just because a "troop" might have done something stupid doesn't mean it was S.O.P for the whole German Army to do it too!

I had a U.S. "troop" once that put all the powder out of three or four 7.62 blank cartridges into one case, and loaded a steel ball bearing on top of it.
It blew up an M-14, which to that point, I had thought impossible.

Maybe Fritz the Sniper did load his own ammo backwards, but again, it would not have any more effect, if as much, on armor plate then if he had shot it point first.

We also had one of the WWI German steel armor plate "bullet proof" vests in our armory collection.

It had four clean holes stitched across it, with spalling on the back, from apparently a .30 cal MG burst, and I'm pretty sure they didn't load those MG bullets backwards!

But I wasn't there either.

rc

 

[BAGTIC]

Neither the lead or the steel melt. If the lead melted from the pressure the bullet would begin melting in the barrel. The steel flows due to the pressure just like toothpaste flows from a tube. It does NOT melt. Tungsten/uranium cores also do not melt or burn there way through armor plate. They displace metal due to pressure the same way a water jet machine tool does.

 

[BADUNAME37]

"). I would suppose that there may also be some gases "slipping by" the cone-shaped base!"

And I am going to tell you there is gas passing the bullet on cone (concave) shaped based bullets, flat base bullets and gas escaping past the bullet before it the bullet leaves the barrel with gas checks, high speed cameras have eliminated all doubt. First picture of gas escaping the barrel first was recorded in the mid teens, the picture recorded the events before the projectile left the barrel, too fast to see, the event recorded moisture becoming visible due to compression, anyhow, they had to re-think the events.
F. Guffey

Well, sir, I don't think I indicated in my post that just because it may happen more with the bullet seated backwards does not conversely mean that it doesn't happen with them seated the usual way. I was implying that it may just be MORE of an issue. I'm sorry if I confused you in any way.

 

[bigedp51]

Sam1911

Everything has been tried by someone somewhere. Reversing a bullet to shoot base-forward isn't likely to produce very accurate shots. Pulling and re-seating a bullet without precision equipment to do it (like a real reloading press) is likely to produce ammo that would be too inconsistent to hit much at all.

Lead-core bullets that hit armor plate splatter. (If they don't penetrate.) Doesn't matter at all which way they're going when they hit.

It would be possible to do. Some may have done it. (Doubt there's much documented evidence, but maybe.) Far more likely that this was one of thousands of trench- (and later, VFW-hall-) rumors GIs told each other about their foes.

There were many which were much more appalling that this. And many of those were true.
__________________
-- Sam

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" (making mistakes)
Sir Winston Churchill

In Canada they are talking about this very same subject and since it involves the Enfield rifle,WWI and British history the posting has "ALL" the facts.(I learned something)


Show Digging Up the Trenches, Sniper Question About "Reversed Projectiles"
(make sure you watch the BBC video)

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=618115

The reverse bullet retains its mass, would penetrate armour and caused spalding.

 

[Sam1911]

Is there a direct link to any of this? I'm not going to join another forum just to watch a vid.

 

[clone]

The Box Of Truth has done some testing with 308.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot50.htm

 

[USSR]

I've read that in WW1 German snipers would pull the bullet out and put in backwards to shoot at the steel plate our snipers were hiding behind.

And I read that the world was flat. Neither makes logical sense, although at the edge of the earth there MIGHT be a German sniper trying like h3ll to remove a bullet.

Don

 

[cfullgraf]

We also had one of the WWI German steel armor plate "bullet proof" vests in our armory collection.

It had four clean holes stitched across it, with spalling on the back, from apparently a .30 cal MG burst, and I'm pretty sure they didn't load those MG bullets backwards!

But I wasn't there either.

rc

It is well documented that one of the hazards inside a WWI tank was from spalling from hits outside of the tank.

So, I suspect, armor plate technology in the 1914-1918 period was not up to present day standards.

I would not doubt that soldiers would shoot at the armor plate protecting the enemy emplacements in the hopes of spalling would wound the folks behind the plate.

As far as turning the bullet around before shooting it, i wasn't there either.

 

[fguffey]

"...that there may also be some gases "slipping by" the cone-shaped base!" I will try to rephrase the response, you suggested there may also be come gases "slipping by" and I say if gasses pass a flat base bullet, boat tail bullet if gas passes a bullet with a cone (concaved) base bullet and if gases pass a bullet with with a gas check, gasses pass a cone based bullet, then the rhetorical question, if the cone increases the area of the base of the bullet and psi is pounds per square inch is pressure increased on the base of the bullet? The bullet does have an increase in area.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

rcmodel, I have no problem with saying "I do not know" I do believe it would be very arrogant of me to say "It is BS" It started with tank crews complaining of metal spalding on the inside with impact on the out side, and they started to ware chainmail armor. Now typing slower, the tank is metal, the shield with the hole in it is metal, both the tank and metal plate spald, a smart move by the Germans would have been to double the plate.



F. Guffey

 

[Nicodemus38]

it wasnt the snipers, it was the standard infantry. it was felt the standard rifle round for the mauser when loaded base forward would provide almost the same penetration as the armor piercing bullets that they were having supply problems with.
from all reports it did penetrate, and generate a larger wound channel on allied infantry. ive never seen how well they did on armor plate though.
but it is known these loads had a chamber pressure far above standard loads, and the bolts jammed up every time they fired.