Stevie-Ray
Member
And that's exactly what it is, no more. He can sugar coat it all he wants, it doesn't change the fact that this is just another bash-fest.
And no, you didn't get the only totally reliable ones.
Local Shop Owner: Sorry, I don't carry Kimber products anymore.
- Thread starter StrikeFire83
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And no, you didn't get the only totally reliable ones.
Zerodefect
member
+1
I don't think anyone actually shoots them. Look at those massive sales #'s. I think I'd notice more Kimbers at the range than Glocks.
Many gun stores really don't carry expensive $1200+ weapons.
Usually Kimbers are the most gorgeous thing at those stores. I think they sell a ton to people that really aren't very active shooters.
Just look at thier advertising in magazines. They don't advertise like that at forum sights. And does anyone here buy the mags anymore? I don't. that info can usually be found online for free, and from far more knowledgable sources than most mag writers.
I got my Kimber when I was a newb and lesser shooter. I think that may be thier target market. And you have to get cheap to compete in that market.
And with that in mind. Isn't Kimber and Springy exactly what they should be? Can they really get better and be the same company with the same target customer base?
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StrikeFire83
Member
Yeah, because honest people posting problems they've had with a product and the manufacturer's lack of enthusiasm in fixing them is a "bash-fest." The vast majority of people don't waste their time concocting stories about a product just because they're "haters." I'm sure some do, but the internet is clogged with the posts of experienced gun owners (documented with photos and timelines) that illustrate SERIOUS issue with brand new Kimber firearms and the company's crappy response to them.
The truth, she hurts.
StrikeFire83, count me as one of the deluded, ignorant lemmings then. My first 1911 was a Kimber Tactical Entry II and I shoot it every other weekend in USPSA matches. I LOVE that pistol because it works so well, it's accurate and feels great in the hand. I'll buy a Kimber Stainless Pro Raptor II when I can find one. Friends have asked me to recommend a 1911 to them and I won't suggest a Kimber. Not because I think they won't work or aren't reliable, but because there are other choices that offer better value for money. I have specific plans for the Raptor so that's why I want one but I certainly wouldn't recommend one to others.
I do agree with Stevie-Ray that you have an agenda which is to put Kimber down at every opportunity. At some point, you lose all credibility on the matter.
I do agree with Stevie-Ray that you have an agenda which is to put Kimber down at every opportunity. At some point, you lose all credibility on the matter.
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StrikeFire83
Member
In an autoloader, the magazine IS part of the gun. If Kimber is shipping sub-par magazines, how is that any less bad than other problems with the guns.
This is something I've never understood about the 1911 market in general. If you bought say, a Glock or an XD or a CZ, would it be acceptable to ship a cruddy magazine with a brand new gun and then tell customer: "Go buy aftermarket mags to make your gun work properly."
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StrikeFire83
Member
1858, I never called you or anyone else a lemming. As I've said from the first post, if you have a working gun, AWESOME, shoot the snot out of it and be happy. I was ready to give Kimber another chance on the Solo Carry, and then the problems that IAMDUKE has been having and the scores of other problem posts coming in.
I've told the Mods several times that I've made my point with this thread, and if they wish to close it that's fine. But when shops, even small ones, start dropping an entire product line because of the frequency of issues with the product and a manufacturer who is difficult to deal with and not interested in fixing problems. That's all I started this thread to say. The scores of people who have come here to share their own stories about the products and Kimber's customer service are doing their own thing. I didn't create a bunch of accounts and to "burn" the company.
I've told the Mods several times that I've made my point with this thread, and if they wish to close it that's fine. But when shops, even small ones, start dropping an entire product line because of the frequency of issues with the product and a manufacturer who is difficult to deal with and not interested in fixing problems. That's all I started this thread to say. The scores of people who have come here to share their own stories about the products and Kimber's customer service are doing their own thing. I didn't create a bunch of accounts and to "burn" the company.
I have owned 4 kimbers over the last ten years and have put over 2000k rounds thru a original classic target model and outside of replacing the recoil springs and firing pin springs at 1000 round intervals, the guns needed nothing more than a cleaning to function properly.
All of my kimbers functioned fine right out of the box and never jam, my brother also have 3 kimbers and has never had any problems.
I think that the real truth is the the only people who really hate or bash kimbers, are the ones that can't afford the money to buy one.
So if you can only afford a taurus or an RIA, you will never know what its like to shoot a 1911 that does 2" groups at 25yrds. consistantly.
All of my kimbers functioned fine right out of the box and never jam, my brother also have 3 kimbers and has never had any problems.
I think that the real truth is the the only people who really hate or bash kimbers, are the ones that can't afford the money to buy one.
So if you can only afford a taurus or an RIA, you will never know what its like to shoot a 1911 that does 2" groups at 25yrds. consistantly.
Cuts both ways. Some folks would never admit to buying something that's less than stellar, so they "overlook" flaws.
I have an Eclipse Custom that has been all I could ever want in terms of accuracy and reliability (finish is so-so). My Ultra Raptor was GTG after a bit of tweaking. The Tactical Custom I owned just plain sucked. Kimber didn't seem real interested in repairing it as I was using the wrong ammo, hadn't broken it in, or didn't know how to shoot it. Had a local smith work his magic and sold it.
I've fired a couple dozen different Kimbers and have yet to find one that wasn't as accurate as you can find among mass produced 1911s. A little attention to QC and a few hours of customer service training and they could regain the rep they enjoyed pre-series II.
I have a les baer premier 2 with the 1.5" guarantee, when comparing it to a kimber gold match and a model 70 gold cup, the baer only does about a 1/4" smaller groups at 25yrds. from a sand bag rest.
The facts are that most target grade pistols from the $750 -$2000 range will always out shoot the shooter if fired from a ransom style rest.
Add in the human factor, the best most average shooters will do with any of these guns is a 2- 2.5" group for a hand held bench rest with iron sights, even if the gun is capable of 1.5" groups at 50 yrds. from a machine rest.
The facts are that most target grade pistols from the $750 -$2000 range will always out shoot the shooter if fired from a ransom style rest.
Add in the human factor, the best most average shooters will do with any of these guns is a 2- 2.5" group for a hand held bench rest with iron sights, even if the gun is capable of 1.5" groups at 50 yrds. from a machine rest.
mljdeckard
Member
I have owned 1911s from Colt, Para-Ordnance, Thompson, and Kimber. I have shot 1911s from Sig, S&W, Springfield, Nighthawk, Les Baer, Wilson, etc. If I were allowed to pick one to carry to war tomorrow, without hesitation, I would pick the Kimber. The Nighthawk I shot jammed on me, and it wasn't dirty. Someone in here recently posted a thread about his 10,000 rd test on his Baer, and it had numerous part failures. I have ordered a Para commemorative pistol for my unit's deployment, (and also my indulgence for the 100th anniversary,) and while I think that the higher capacity would be desirable, (if not entirely necessary,) for a combat sidearm, I doubt that it will be as well-made or function as well as my Kimber. (I know this because I am actually in possession of an identical pistol that belongs to a friend.)
There was a time when I thought that I should listen to the opinions of others, and the editors of gun magazines, because my own real-world experience was limited enough that I believed that I couldn't trust it. Now, having come full circle, I realize that my original gut feelings were correct all along, and that I really didn't gain anything in joining the choruses of those who said that the Emperor's clothes were beautiful.
There was a time when I thought that I should listen to the opinions of others, and the editors of gun magazines, because my own real-world experience was limited enough that I believed that I couldn't trust it. Now, having come full circle, I realize that my original gut feelings were correct all along, and that I really didn't gain anything in joining the choruses of those who said that the Emperor's clothes were beautiful.
I had a Kimber Pro Carry for 10 years, and it was a quite good pistol. I just happened to prefer my Colt just a bit more. To be fair though, the Colt had been tuned by someone who knew what they were doing, whereas the Kimber was out of the box stock. I would still own another Kimber.
You missed the point.
larryh1108
Member
I believe that most gun owners come to the net if they have problems with their Kimber or Colt or whatever. There is a core of shooters who come here to talk BS about shooting in general but most people who buy these guns don't visit forums to talk guns. They come here to complain, if they need to.
The point is, if Kimber sells 50,000 guns a year and has a 1% failure rate, that's 500 unhappy campers. If they all came to this site to complain you'd think Kimber is making crap. We don't see the 49,500 happy campers. I'd bet most of the Kimber owners buy them and shoot maybe 200 rounds a year. These buyers buy them for the glitz and name and never really put them to the test.
If Brand X sold 15,000 1911s a year with the same 1% failure rate there would be 150 unhappy campers. 150 vs 500 and it looks like Kimber is a waste of money. The fact is there are 49,500 happy Kimber owners (per year) and there are 14,850 happy Brand X owners. Unless you are a regular on gun boards, the happy campers don't come by to tell us how wonderful their Kimbers are.
If you sell the most, by a wide margin, you will have the most problems but that does not mean you make the worst product. It's all numbers, not rocket science. The 1% (or whatever) of the unlucky owners deserve to be pissed because they spent a lot of money. No one likes to buy a bad product but in the age of mass production it happens and it happens all to frequently.
I've read all the Kimber bashing here and everywhere else and take it for what it's worth. There are people who post their experiences and there are those who have a vendetta. I am one of the happy campers. I wouldn't sell or trade my pre-series II for any gun out there but that's just one man's opinion. 55,000 of us buy a Kimber every year. Somebody must be getting a good gun or there wouldn't be lines to buy them.
The point is, if Kimber sells 50,000 guns a year and has a 1% failure rate, that's 500 unhappy campers. If they all came to this site to complain you'd think Kimber is making crap. We don't see the 49,500 happy campers. I'd bet most of the Kimber owners buy them and shoot maybe 200 rounds a year. These buyers buy them for the glitz and name and never really put them to the test.
If Brand X sold 15,000 1911s a year with the same 1% failure rate there would be 150 unhappy campers. 150 vs 500 and it looks like Kimber is a waste of money. The fact is there are 49,500 happy Kimber owners (per year) and there are 14,850 happy Brand X owners. Unless you are a regular on gun boards, the happy campers don't come by to tell us how wonderful their Kimbers are.
If you sell the most, by a wide margin, you will have the most problems but that does not mean you make the worst product. It's all numbers, not rocket science. The 1% (or whatever) of the unlucky owners deserve to be pissed because they spent a lot of money. No one likes to buy a bad product but in the age of mass production it happens and it happens all to frequently.
I've read all the Kimber bashing here and everywhere else and take it for what it's worth. There are people who post their experiences and there are those who have a vendetta. I am one of the happy campers. I wouldn't sell or trade my pre-series II for any gun out there but that's just one man's opinion. 55,000 of us buy a Kimber every year. Somebody must be getting a good gun or there wouldn't be lines to buy them.
jwash3rd
Member
Might as well put my .02 in. I never would have thought about a Kimber but I happened to win a Custom II from a FNRA raffle. I never had any problems with it and it fed any ammo I put in it, although I do avoid steel. Haven't kept a round count but I did need to replace the recoil spring so it must be well over a thousand. When it started misfeeding I called up their CS and they were helpful, although it turned out I had installed the recoil spring backwards when I cleaned it. Other than my own mistake, it's been dependable and I keep it in the nightstand with confidence.
While there does seem to be some validity with the issues at Kimber today there is also alot of truth in this post. It is a point I have made about Kimber in previous posts myself. They do produce many more 1911's than anybody else in the country thus with the raw numbers they are going to have more "problemed" children(guns) out there. I really think the biggest issue with Kimber is their QC-Customer Service. If they were a bit more helpful and understanding then much of the bashing would go away.
Stevie-Ray
Member
No, because your only intent here was to bash Kimber, makes it a bash-fest. Lets pick apart your posts.
And then you say this:
And all these problems cropped up between when you wanted to take a look at the Solo "today" and now? Didn't think so.
Like you might have "today"? Oh that's right you wouldn't have because that wasn't on your agenda.
Thank you, we will. That's what we call being tossed a bone and it's very transparent.
And yet you went into a gun shop "today" because you wanted to take a look at another Kimber.
Your agenda has been revealed and now you want the mods to close the thread because you were called on it. Your thread smacked of disingenuousness from the very start. As 1858 said at some point you lose all credibility on the matter. AFAIC, you reached that point when you started the thread.
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StrikeFire83
Member
^ Stevie-Ray, your "logic" is pretty paper-thin.
No, fella, the problems started cropping up right after the pistol went from the Shot Show to customers' hands, but I only started leaning about them recently. Then you conflate (look it up) several days of my posts and quote them on a single page, making it look like I said all those things at once.
Given your reasoning, it is humanly impossible to wake up one day interested in a pistol, walk into your local shop and be told that the shop is no longer carrying not just the pistol you're interested in but the entire product line, go to another shop and hear additional negative things about the pistol (including a manufacturing shutdown due to a mag-release issue), and then go onto the internet over the next day or two and find threads like these:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=314432
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=588513
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1010034832/p/1
Add to that IMTHDUKE's experience, a longtime poster here who gave us about a range report on the Solo and described an improper wear issue. Ironically, he started his thread on the same day as mine outlining to us how Kimber took almost a month to tell him that they don't have a fix or a return date for his pistol, and to just "stand by."
Add to that my experience with a Kimber Custom II, which was never reliable with ANY kind of JHP ammo. Add to that the countless threads regarding SERIOUS problems with new Kimber 1911s including, but not limited to: barrel rust, barrel peening, out of spec chambers, deformed/destroyed mainspring housings, and enough FTFs/FTEs to plug a landfill.
One might say that when a person is so blinded by devotion to a company that he feels the need to lash out at people who have significant reservations about a product based on evidence of documented problems with quality control and customer service...that person might need to take a look at himself. If my actions qualify me as an irrational liar who starts up "bash-fest" threads, then your actions might just qualify you as an unrepentant Kimber toadie. Goodnight and good luck.
No, fella, the problems started cropping up right after the pistol went from the Shot Show to customers' hands, but I only started leaning about them recently. Then you conflate (look it up) several days of my posts and quote them on a single page, making it look like I said all those things at once.
Given your reasoning, it is humanly impossible to wake up one day interested in a pistol, walk into your local shop and be told that the shop is no longer carrying not just the pistol you're interested in but the entire product line, go to another shop and hear additional negative things about the pistol (including a manufacturing shutdown due to a mag-release issue), and then go onto the internet over the next day or two and find threads like these:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=314432
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=588513
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1010034832/p/1
Add to that IMTHDUKE's experience, a longtime poster here who gave us about a range report on the Solo and described an improper wear issue. Ironically, he started his thread on the same day as mine outlining to us how Kimber took almost a month to tell him that they don't have a fix or a return date for his pistol, and to just "stand by."
Add to that my experience with a Kimber Custom II, which was never reliable with ANY kind of JHP ammo. Add to that the countless threads regarding SERIOUS problems with new Kimber 1911s including, but not limited to: barrel rust, barrel peening, out of spec chambers, deformed/destroyed mainspring housings, and enough FTFs/FTEs to plug a landfill.
One might say that when a person is so blinded by devotion to a company that he feels the need to lash out at people who have significant reservations about a product based on evidence of documented problems with quality control and customer service...that person might need to take a look at himself. If my actions qualify me as an irrational liar who starts up "bash-fest" threads, then your actions might just qualify you as an unrepentant Kimber toadie. Goodnight and good luck.
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the few of them that i've shot worked fine but no better than my p-14 or my70 series MKIV goldcup,or 80 series combat commander(so sweet)there is also a rumor that they are going to produce s&w's new E series under a manufacturing contract,i did say rumor.i wonder if anybody could validate that.(now this is old guy remembering) you couldn't find levis during viet nam war because levi-strauss was making uniforms,and and the ones you got were almost like seconds quality dropped,stoli vodka after pepsi bought it and upped production,makes better lens cleaner now,plymouth gin,are some examples.many producers lose quality control with mass production,and too many model options.when henry ford started it was any color you want as long as it's black.later more colors were offered then the edsel is kimber gonna be the next edsel?these are broad strokes but the point i think is clear
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Wow. It seems it should be possible for reasonable people to honestly present their personal experiences without being accused of fan-boy-ism or of "bashing." It seems it would also be possible for folks to read of experiences that differ from their own without being so personally invested in a bought product that they must contest, no, rail against, such reports.
If I owned a Kimber and it worked well, I'd be happy. If I bought a Kimber and it didn't work well, I'd be very unhappy. We have room here for reports of both kinds.
Do your homework and caveat emptor.
If I owned a Kimber and it worked well, I'd be happy. If I bought a Kimber and it didn't work well, I'd be very unhappy. We have room here for reports of both kinds.
Do your homework and caveat emptor.
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