Long arms for home defense?

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I guess I should mention I have internal brick and plaster walls (very old house). My slugs are in no danger of penetration. Should a BG duck behind something other than a wall, at that range unless it is a gun safe, or a wall he will have no help.

Steve that is very true. On a standard wall, Picture on a wall, sheet rock, possible cross member, maybe a pipe, insulation, wiring, more sheet rock, out the other side. Lots can happen. I have seen .45 ACP HPs go in a wall and out a roof. Sometimes you can't even figure out why.

People need to make smart choices about what works for them. My sluggers sure work for me and I never worry about stopping power.
 
My HD Lineup.....

Two shotguns, a 9mm Carbine, 9mm and .45ACP handguns.

HD%20Lineup.JPG


One of the handguns stays by the bed with a flashlight. The long guns stay in the safe with the door open. If I have time to get to the safe first then the 870 will go with me with one of the handguns IWB as a backup. If not then its handgun and flashlight. I wouldn't feel undergunned with any of these though.
 
Jeff White: I retired from the Army...22 years. Combat Arms Infantry. I spent two years as a Drill Instructor at Ft McClellan, Alabama. My additional duty was to operate the base Bayonet Range. Am I an expert...nope. Have I had more training with the bayonet than my side arms...yup. I think I can use the bayonet. Mr. White, um, why do you ask? :rolleyes:
 
Basically, long arms are ideal for home defense. They are far easier to hit your target with and tend to cause more damage. In a stressful adrenaline filled situation you need all the help you can get. There is ONE thing that we all need to be thinking about here at that is OVERPENETRATION. We should all be thinking about where these bullets are going to land if they miss or pass through our target!

That said, a 12 Gauge Shotgun with 00 Buck is probably the ideal home defense weapon. It is highly destructive, and causes damage similar to to 10 or so 9mm pistol rounds. You can also choose from a variety of shells for flexibility in different situations. In the world of effective attacker stopping rounds, it 00 Buck does not overpentrate...much. However, according to theboxotruth.com, this round will still penetrate 9 PIECES OF DRYWALL! That's about the same as a 9mm pistol. Even #4 Buck will penetrate 6 or 7... which is about the same as that 10/22 of yours. That means that it could easily shoot straight through your house and into the neighbors, possibly into the neighbors after that. So please, folks, try to pay attention, even if you're getting robbed.

There are a couple things a shotgun will not do.... and that is where a carbine comes into play. A shotgun will not penetrate body armor (unless you're using some exotic rounds). So in the unlikely event that you've got some evil high tech armored goblins after you, then a carbine might be more useful. But remember a .223 or 7.62 or any rifle rounds are able to bust through a dozen pieces drywall and keep right on flying. These weapons should be used with GREAT care in an urban setting. Anybody who says they have an AK and a 30 round mag and is living someplace with neighbors has NOT thought through their self defense plan adequately. If, however, you live out in the cuts, and you need to defend yourself from the ruskie invasion, then a long rifle with a huge mag and a howitzer might be in order.
 
remember a .223 or 7.62 or any rifle rounds are able to bust through a dozen pieces drywall and keep right on flying. These weapons should be used with GREAT care in an urban setting
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Maybe. There are sources that disagree with this assessment, though. From the AR-15 Ammo Oracle:
Virtually any kind of ammo, with the exception of light bird shot, will easily penetrate typical wall construction (two layers of wall-board separated by 3 to 4 inches of space). Testing has shown, however, that after penetrating a typical interior wall, a 5.56mm projectile will have less wounding potential than most common handgun or buckshot loads. This is true because the low mass of the bullet sheds velocity quickly, and velocity is its key wounding component. This doesn't mean that 5.56mm ammo isn't still potentially deadly, but that the severity of an injury is likely to be less from a 5.56mm bullet than from a 9mm, .40, .45, or #00 buckshot round. What is important is not the degree to which these rounds penetrate, but their "ex post lethality" or their lethality AFTER encountering wallboard or other cover/concealment.

The difference is so significant that the FBI and other ballistic experts recommend that law enforcement transition to handguns to "dig suspects out" of cover because of the superior penetration and wounding ability of handgun rounds over 5.56 or .223.

This, along with the increasing number of lawsuits from "friendly fire" submachine gun victims and 5.56mm's ability to penetrate ballistic vests, are some of the reasons that many SWAT teams are transitioning away from the 9mm MP5 and selecting 5.56mm carbines instead.

This is understandable given the longer barrel length and therefore higher velocity and consequently higher penetration of handgun rounds in submachine guns.

If our experience on the forums are accurate, most shot gunners and submachine gun fans receive this news poorly. It does seem counterintuitive since 5.56mm is a "high powered round." All we can say to this is that the FBI FTU fired hundreds of rounds through carefully constructed wall sections and then into gel. Ignore these results at your own peril.
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Not saying you shouldn't be careful. Just saying that "00 buck offers less penetration in an urban setting than .223" might be incorrect in many cases.
 
dawgfever said;

Jeff White: I retired from the Army...22 years. Combat Arms Infantry. I spent two years as a Drill Instructor at Ft McClellan, Alabama. My additional duty was to operate the base Bayonet Range. Am I an expert...nope. Have I had more training with the bayonet than my side arms...yup. I think I can use the bayonet. Mr. White, um, why do you ask?
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Because a bayonet will make an already unwieldy long gun even more so in the close quarters of a structure. Must make bringing the shotgun into action from the indoor ready position a bit problematic.

When did they start calling Army facilities bases? When I retired in Nov 03 they were still called Forts, Posts and Camps. It was that way when I enlisted in 1974....

Jeff
 
I too enlisted in the Army in 1974...did my Basic and Infantry AIT at Ft Polk, La. I retired out of Ft Lewis in 1996. I've called them bases and forts while in the states. I've called them Kasernes' in Germany, and Camps while stationed in Korea. Once I was stationed on a Navy Base, worked with the Marines and actually lived on an Air Force facility...they called it Gitmo...what's the big deal. Jeff...you are beginning to sound a bit smug. I've used much larger weapons in tighter MOUT positions. What? Are you suggesting that a rifle...and one with a fixed bayonet cannot be employed effectively inside a building? :confused: Might I ask what you did in the Army? MOS please...who knows, perhaps we might have crossed paths during our watch. Also, I note you hail from Alma, Ill. I've lived a good portion of my life in the Fox Valley area: St Charles, Geneva, Batavia...graduated from Mooseheart and my alma mater is Illinois State Univ in Normal, Ill.
 
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DawgFvr said;
I've used much larger weapons in tighter MOUT positions. What? Are you suggesting that a rifle...and one with a fixed bayonet cannot be employed effectively inside a building?
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I have also used larger weapons indoors. I'm not saying that it can't be employed effectively, I'm questioning the use of a fixed bayonet indoors. The number of us who have even served in the military is a tiny percent of the population. Out of those who've served, the number who were Army or Marine Infantrymen is even smaller.

Perhaps you can explain the advantage of adding 8 to 16 inches length to a 40 inch weapon that you are going to use indoors. Yes, you gain something in a gun grab situation, but do you gain enough to offset what you give up in maneuverability? Do you gain that much over more conventional methods of defending against a gun grab such as a muzzle strike or simply firing your weapon?

Might I ask what you did in the Army? MOS please...
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Infantry from 74-96 last Infantry MOS was 11B4HQ8, FA from 96-03 13B5M. I work as a full time police officer since retiring and instruct for the SRT here. I'm not aware of any military or LE TTPs that call for fixed bayonets inside houses.

what's the big deal. Jeff...you are beginning to sound a bit smug.
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We try to keep the Strategies and Tactics subforum reality based. Posting a picture of a shotgun with a fixed bayonet may look kewl, but is it a realistic option for use inside a house, or is it just being kewl online? Would you honestly recommend that to the membership of THR?

who knows, perhaps we might have crossed paths during our watch.
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We would have done ANCOC about the same time in our careers, I was class 5-86.

Jeff
 
All weapons are tools and, like tools, one needs the right set for the right job. Every person...every home...every individual's level of training and every situation is different. I do not recommend my particular home defense tactics/strategy to anyone. My statement that you responded to delt with grabbing a barrel. I stated, and still maintain, that it would be the last barrel that person would attempt to grab. My bottom floor is very open/spacious. I have only two natural choke points in the whole house actually...both upstairs. Upstairs halway and stairwell. Stairwell has two 90 degree turns. If I am taken by surprise, I would always go to my .45 ACP. If alerted by dogs or back/front door or window breakage...I always go for my shotgun. There is no movement constriction whatsoever on my bottom floor for bayonet usage. I might also add that a bayonet is very lethal in a narrow hallway/stairwell as well. Hmmm, just had a memory of the step/thrust cycle we practiced in clearing a roadway (riot control)...eight of us abreast clearing a highway. Fixed bayonet shotguns can and are used in close quarters. My particular shotgun has a shortened stock LOP...as I have short arms. I am quite adept at turning corners with the stock under my arm pit...and prefer the bayonet attached in this scenario. I have complete control over the shotgun with low recoil 00 buck...and am in a natural coiled "step/thrust" position.
 
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The 10/22 meets the 1st Rule criteria. But there are lots of other options, as mentioned above.

My fastest HD weapon is a 1911, kept in a touchpad-lock sport safe under my side of the bed.

My first choice HD weapon is the Model 12 12ga., kept in my manual "dial-lock" safe, in the walk-in closet.

Depending on the situation, I have the 1911 NOW, and can get the Model 12 if time permits.

I haven't found a good, secure, and quick solution for the 12ga., yet. (There are kids in the house, and sometimes their friends)
 
M1 Carbine

Just seems to be good enough for the job. I find it hard to fantasize scenarios (in my specific life/circumstances, etc) where the M1 Carbine will fail but a shotgun would suceed.

Someday I'll put an optical sight on it and really enjoy the juxtaposition of old tech and new tech.

K
 
There is no other sound that so intimidating or comforting as a 12 gauge round being jacked into chamber.

It lets you know you are ready and it tells the intruder that he made a big mistake.
 
I don;t think it's a good idea to depend on the sound of a round being chambered in any weapon to intimidate your opponent. The fact is, it often doesn't intimidate anyone.

Jeff
 
Long guns are problematic at contact distances

If you are going to "fort up" while waiting for help to arrive you may be well enough served with a long arm

But nobody has to grab your barrel to render the long gun innefective...all they need to do is get real close and they can stab you while you shoot holes in the ceiling...maybe they have a bayonet too

Long guns are also harder to use one handed than a handgun...which makes it harder to be on the phone with authorities, turn lights on and off, hold the hand of a loved one, etc

As for the sound of that round being jacked into the chamber.....sounds like a target indicator to me.
 
+1 on both the 12ga and on the cabine. My primary HD is my Mossberg 12ga, I have the Persuader with the 18 1/2in barrell, I feel very comfortable in its ability to end just about any threat inside normal SD ranges. (gave $200)

2nd I bought a Highpoint carbine for my wife to plink with (friend has one and recommended it) (I know its ugly, looks like hammered sh@t), and after having it for the last couple months and running a lot of rounds through it, I would feel quite comfortable using it in a self/home defense situation. I have fire several hundred rounds from it (multiple brands/types) and have never had a FTF/FTL and it is both very handy and quite accurate. ($210)

A 10/22 is ok if that's all you have, but you can find better suited weapons for pretty cheap.
 
+1 pump shotgun. I use #1 buck....30 cal pellets. I definitely recommend having a set of real sights on the barrel, the pattern can be small at close range.

I personally like the idea of having an AK clone or sks handy at home. The penetrative abilities of the round can be used to good advantage if someone is using your home as cover to try to kill you.
 
I like shotguns because of their reliable mechanics and unparalleled stopping power but I’ve always though that they are not that adequate for home defense, and the lessons learned during a defensive pistol class last Saturday has reaffirmed this notion even more.
Most long arms are too big to move around a house.
It takes a lot of practice not to bump into every wall or piece of furniture, specially if under stress, and it gives just too much leverage in case an attacker gets hold of your barrel.
IN spite of the maneuvers you can learn in case this happens, the truth is that a long arm does provide more leverage, and if you are against a physically stronger attacker, odds are not in your favor when fighting over the weapon.
I’d rather have a SMG or some other semi auto sub-gun or really short carbine.
The pump shotgun also has another disadvantage that was made very clear to me while practicing retention drills and hand techniques during the class: The pump shotgun obviously requires both hands to work, something that is fast to do when no one is giving you a hard time, but you still need both hands none the less.
Meaning, if you fired your weapon and the attacker happened to twist the barrel away from his body, you are now in a pretty big pool of fecal matter, fighting over a weapon that requires you to use the hand you are using to defend yourself from your attacker, and putting both hands on your shotgun allows your attacker to use one hand to keep the barrel away from his body( you’ll probably be locked together as you fight, so you also lack the range to put the long barrel against him) and the other hand to punch/stab/shoot into your face at will.
A handgun allows you to use your “sacrifice” hand to keep your attacker at bay, punch or push to gain more distance, while you can easily pump round after round as you shoot from the waist, or with the weapon held close against your ribs, muzzle pointed at the attacker’s chest.
Trying all this out for real is very enlightening. ( Taking the necessary precautions please! Both participants checking for themselves that the weapons used are empty before they exercise this)
Sure, cops use shotguns ( though lately carbines are becoming more popular), but they choose shotguns because of other good reasons , other than the great stopping power they provide.
1)ALL cops carry a handgun as well, something most folks that recommend a shotgun as one and only weapon for defense seem to forget.
2) They have other bystanders to worry about, and the shotgun’s limited range is a terrific bonus regarding this issue, God only knows how many innocent bystanders are alive thanks to this wise decision.
3) Cops work as a team, they wont go anywhere alone if they can help it, specially face an armed attacker. Meaning, if an attacker gets hold of an officer’s shotgun barrel, his partner will either shoot him or crack his skull open with his baton.
BIG difference.
Seriously, try bringing your shotgun’s barrel up from a 45º stance, or try swinging it in a 90º or 180º angle against a moving attacker 2 or 3 yards away, try pumping another shell into the chamber while you both have hold of the shotgun and are fighting for control, try getting the barrel pointed at him as you are both glued together wrestling for your lives.
If you do this with a non cooperative partner that takes the exercise seriously, you’ll know what I mean within minutes.

FerFAL
 
00 Buckshot will also cleanly rip through drywall... Try #3 or #4 Birdshot. For those with inertia-actioned Berettas and Benellis you'll need to determine if these will cycle. I'm almost certain they will, but you need to feed them if you have them beforehand just to be sure.
 
A Mosin 91/30 with they bayonet works well....if you cant see to shoot keep poking until you hit something
 
And that’s how the wife that went down stairs to get a glass of water at 3 AM died, along with the cat, dog, teenage kid that just came back home , etc.:)
IF you can’t identify your target, don’t shoot or poke at anything.

FerFAL
 
Quote:
"Long guns are problematic at contact distances

If you are going to "fort up" while waiting for help to arrive you may be well enough served with a long arm

But nobody has to grab your barrel to render the long gun innefective...all they need to do is get real close and they can stab you while you shoot holes in the ceiling...maybe they have a bayonet too"

Great way to explain, in detail, my previous post. Thank you, sir!
 
Actually, the "sound" of a racking shotgun sends shivers down my spine...I can only imagine if I were the BG creeping around in a strange/dark house when hearing it. I realize that many "experts" on here differ in this tactic...but keeping the chamber empty til I decide to load just works for me...k? It only takes a 1/16 of a second to chamber...bout the time my safe switch moves forward on my Mossy...all a trained habit for me. BTW, in 2001 a 6.8 mag earthquake hit WA State. My house was at the epicenter...biggest one we've had for decades. It was very deep so no real damage aside from minor building cracks and a few wall bricks lost in some cases...the Capitol Bldg was closed to the public for quite a spell during repair work. Well...my next door neighbor's loaded shotgun fell over and went off during the ruckus. See...everything depends on the situation...and training is the key for each and every person's particular situation. ;)
 
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