Long gun for field protection

[krellor]

First, I apologize if this thread is redundant. I searched through past threads as well as web searches for the information I am looking for and haven't found quite what I am looking for.

My situation is this. I am a long time back packer/climber/general outdoors man. During my time in the woods I have had my share of experiences with guns, but have never owned or carried one myself (though I have fired shotguns numerous times). I have felt that I never really needed to carry a gun for protection in the woods (I live in the pacific northwest) despite encountering grizzly, moose, bison, and other large animals on my trips. The one time a bear was paying me too much interest my air horn scared him away.

However, I am recently married and my wife shares my enthusiasm of the outdoors and I find myself wanting to carry a gun as a last measure of defense against large predators on trips when she is with me. The problem is that while I am comfortable around guns, never having owned one I know very little about them, and I am not a hunter.

Reading up on what kind of gun is best suited for my needs I am finding conflicting information between 12 gauge shotguns, or rifles as far as stopping power. I was hoping that the knowledgeable folks here could give me some advice on what weapon to go with.

Since I am usually in the woods for 5-12 days and have a 35-65 pound pack weight and size is an issue, however I would rather have added weight rather than sacrifice stopping power. Ideally I am looking for a gun that I can rapidly aim and fire, and has the capacity for several follow up rounds. The gun only really needs to be accurate between 10 and 50 yards as anything farther away probably isn't threatening me, nor would I be able to see it in brush. As an added tidbit, recommendations for a backup handgun should the shotgun/rifle fail or I am separated from it would be appreciated.

I am hoping that you can lay the information out for me in laymans terms as I am not familiar with much of the terminology or products available. Again, any help you can give me is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[whitetiger7654]

For a beginner I would say a lever gun for the carbine and a revolver for the side arm. As far as caliber well you need something big enough but not to big for you to handle.

 

[mossberg]

Remington 870 or Mossberg 500. Slugs will ruin a bears day and if you run out of food/get lost you could take a bird with shot. If you decide to hunt later you could take deer with it too.

 

[SecuritySixShooter]

I carry my shotgun when at or near camp. I carry my .357 revolver with a 4 inch barrel while hiking. Works pretty well for me.

 

[Ash]

Alright, I'm a back-packer and I can tell you the number one problem with any kind of long-gun on the trail is where to put it. If you stow it so that you can actually pack that weight about, it isn't handy to use should Mr. Bear decide to munch on you or family. Getting the pack off, sliding out the rifle/shotgun, and then engaging the bear may take too long.

For that reason, I would recommend a revolver worn on the hip (above or below the waist strap). That wouldn't do as much against a bear but it is much quicker to deploy. If not that, then I would recommend a Remington 870 with pistol grip stock and synthetic forend because it's light enough to carry on a hike. The Trouble of carrying it in such a way as to make it useful on the trail remains, but it would be easier to carry than a rifle and lighter than a 30-30. I have personally put some thought into carrying and, well, I never have because I haven't found a good place to carry. Most of my hiking is in black bear country or gator country (which includes Louisiana black bear) and does not involve grizzly contact.

Ash

Ash

 

[Zoogster]

Knowing where you live would also help.

The ideal firearm for that role would be something chambered in a rifle/shotgun cartridge very compact and light yet able to be carried in a quickly accessible way.

If designing a firearm from those requirements you would end up with something that was NFA (National Firearms Act) which is not legal some places, and more restricted with greater liability. A very short barrel shotgun with a collapsable or telescoping stock you could hang on a sling would probably be perfect for backpacking.

For a regular long arm a shotgun is still probably your best choice. 12 gauge has the largest variety of loads and is suitable.
If you are planning to kill a particular animal especialy hunting then a rifle in the appropriate caliber is best. They are more accurate for longer range and the energy can be much higher. Some have good capacity as well, giving you many more shots for a given volume of ammunition (for defense, hunting laws usualy have capacity limitations.)

However for the sake of versatility the shotgun is better. With the proper slugs it can easily kill any animal in North America at 1-75 yards( and even further designed for slug hunting) which is well inside the range you should find yourself in during a defensive situation. With buckshot it is superior against smaller critters like people, canine(coyote, wolf) and feline(cougar) problems in the field.
With birdshot it can dispatch snakes, rodents, birds or anything else you find the need to kill.
So by carrying a few different loads you can be set for anything and any use.
Carry loaded with slugs or buckshot for protection against the threat you consider most likely, with the other and some birdshot kept handy in case.

Also keep in mind many long arms are not "drop safe" like most modern handguns. There is not a firing pin block, and if you drop it, fall down, or it bangs into something hard it can go off with one in the chamber. For that reason you might wish to consider keeping a full magazine and empty chamber while involved in more risky activities or carrying a handgun instead.

 

[krellor]

Thanks for all of the quick replies, I appreciate the input. I was wondering what you guys think of the following pages information:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotguns_protection_field.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifles_protection_field.htm

As far as the suggestion of the lever action, I will look into that, although I have only fired pump action.

Ash, a few (dang, make that several) years ago my uncle and I were up in Alaska and he purchased a shotgun in case of bears and ran into the problem of how best to stow it. Ultimately we built a long gun holster onto the side/back of the pack which was able to store it but allowed for fairly quick over/side shoulder pulling (if the gun is short enough or your arms are long enough). It didn't provide any protection for the gun and wouldn't keep it safe from inclement weather, etc... but it made it quick to grab.

I agree though, storing the gun is the hard part, and I know that my arms, being shorter than my uncles, had a slower draw than him.

Also, to give an idea of where I spend a lot of my time most of my trips are in one of 5 places. Yellowstone (eastern shore of Yellowstone lake, gallatin skyline), the blue/wallowa mountains, eastern Alaska, northern BC (typically above the bowron area) and the okanogan. I live in washington state.

Zoogster, thank you for all of the information. I too thought that the versatility of the shotgun made it ideal until I read the above pages contrasting rifles vrs shotguns. I still prefer the idea of a shotgun, but not being a hunter, have never used one to take down game and have no perspective into its actual stopping power. I did used to work at a police station (not a cop, obviously) and one suggested to alterante the rounds in the magazine between slug and 00 shot so I have what I need when I need it.

I am intrigued by your mention of the short barrel shotgun, and was wondering if you could give me an example of one to look up and see if my state has special restrictions or bans on it. As far as planning on killing a particular animal, not really. I just want something for general, last line defense against large predators (cougars, bears, etc...). I don't see myself taking up hunting, so I don't need a gun that is good for those purposes. Anyway, thanks for all of the information.

 

[Handyman]

Like Ash said , a rifle or shotgun would not be practical . Since you might have to deal with very large animals , I suggest either a Ruger single or double action 44 magnum revolver or Ruger 454 casull / 45 colt . Talk to a couple of gun dealers but be carefull because the guys behind the counter don't always know what they are talking about or might try to sell you something that isn't right for you . Whatever you decide to get , make sure you go to a range and practice , practice , practice . You should be totally comfortable shooting the gun because when the s hits the fan and the adrenalin is pumping you will be shooting on instinct and muscle memory .

 

[Cosmoline]

It's far, far, far easier to learn how to be proficient with a slug gun or rifle than a handgun. I've been blasting away with magnum handguns for a decade now and I'm still not nearly good enough to reliably nail a charging bear.

I'd suggest trying out a variety of arms from slug guns to leverguns and seeing what you like best. Carrying without sufficient training and practice is exceedingly dangerous.

Like Ash said , a rifle or shotgun would not be practical

Maybe it wouldn't be PC for parts of the Cascades, but it's certainly practical. There are numerous ways to rig a long gun for hiking, from backpack scabbards to my patented quick release device:



I find it easier on my back to carry a Mosin Nagant than a heavy magnum wheelgun. And what two legged predator would mess with someone who has a fricking Mosin slung out front? It's how nature says "do not touch."

For slab siders the scabbard is excellent. AK Sportsman is making a nice one now. I have it and you can attach it to any backpack

http://www.alaskasportsmanproducts.com/BackPack.html

 

[rcmodel]

I would suggest a Glock Model 20 10mm pistol.

It probably won't stop or kill a big bear.
Bear Spray is probably your best viable defense there.

It probably won't stop a cougar, because if a cougar attacks you, it will be from behind, and on top of you before you know what is happening.

But it will pack easy on your pack frame or straps in a nylon holster, be readily accessible, carry half a box of ammo in two loaded magazines, stand any & all conditions without cleaning or maintenance, and always work.

And work very well for anything you are likely to be able to do anything about with a gun, such as two-legged predators.

Statistically, they are far more likely to attack you, and far more numerous then carnivorous animals.


rcmodel

 

[whitetiger7654]

I love autoloaders and Glocks just as much as the next guy. But recommending it for a new shooter for a life or death situation is NOT a good idea. Unless he plans on spending time to learn how to clear a jam if it did happen.

 

[krellor]

Thanks for the input rc, although I am really only looking for a handgun as a backup for the long-gun. As you said the Glock won't stop a bear (or other large predator) so I want something that will. Bear spray isn't really viable for me either because it is useless in windy conditions, and at certain altitudes and temperatures.

Your are right that a cougar would probably attack from behind, although I remember one time in northern idaho I was hiking along a long abandoned road and came around a bend to see a cougar not more than 15 yards ahead and to the right. It just kind of looked at me, and I just tried to keep from pissing myself. After a few moments it left. Probably my scariest surprise encounter with wildlife. I don't know why, but the big cats scare me more than anything else.

Anyway, in short, if that encounter had gone differently I would like to have more than a telescoping hiking pole to raise in defense.

As a quick note, whichever gun/guns I go with I will definitely take the time to practice with and learn, but there is something to be said for KISS (keep it simple stupid). While I am willing to put as much time as necessary to become proficient with my weapon of choice, I would rather it not be one renowned for problems of difficulty.

 

[rcmodel]

Well then, your best choice is a 12ga. slug-gun if you can figure out how to carry it.

Following that, I would vote for a Marlin 45-70 Guide-Gun.
Lots of bear stomping power, in a very small package.

BTW: Glock's jam?
I hadn't ever heard that!


rcmodel

 

[Cosmoline]

Unless you're in the middle of fishing a slugster isn't that big of a problem. People carry them up here all the time.

 

[rcmodel]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Alaska Fish & Game boys are pretty fond of their 10mm Glocks and 870 slug-guns.

You'd think they would know what works best in the wild & wolly woods by now.


rcmodel

 

[Ash]

Take all advice in the spirit as it has been given. For me, it's pretty darn tough to find a good place to carry without hassle, but a side-mount is as good as it gets. But climbing through wind-throw or under/over dead trees can be tough with something very long. Here's a pic of our last trip on the Bartram Trail, Georgia/North Carolina.

Ash

 

[TallPine]

If you're in Yellowstone National Park (Victim Disarmament Zone) then you're not going to be carrying any gun legally.

If you're in Canada, then you're really not going to be carrying a handgun

I've backpacked in bear country with a shotgun. Up high on the snow and rocks I just lashed it to my pack, but down in the brush I carried in my hands. Not comfortable, but you can get used to it, and it's a lot better than being mauled by a bear. I always carried with an empty chamber, but looking back on it, in heavy brush I should have had a round in the chamber and maybe even the safety off too

In serious bear country, I would want to have both a long gun and a large caliber handgun. The latter is for the times when you have your shotgun laid aside to cook, set up camp, etc.

I can also tell you first hand, that it is not very comforting to have just a shotgun nearby when you are all zipped up in a mummy bag and a bear walks by a few feet away

 

[Ed Ames]

As commendable as it is to want to carry a firearm to protect your wife I'm not sure rushing out to get a shotgun or rifle is the wisest course of action available.

Start with education even if you've fired some guns in the past. Familarity with a variety of guns is important to the choice. The NRA organizes a lot of "introduction to shooting" classes. Most will give you a good introduction to safe firearm handling and many include some supervised range time.

Most importantly (and the real reason for the classes): Bring the wife into it as well. Nobody can protect a woman as well as the woman herself. If you are injured she may need to defend both of you. If she is injured you may need to leave her while you go for help.

Once you both have a little more first hand knowledge you can make sound decisions.

All of that said.... I'd choose a pair of revolvers in .44 magnum. One for you, one for your wife. Together they will offer a LOT more protection than one shotgun. Why? Not just the fact that you will have a harder time reaching a shotgun on your back... you don't know which of you an attacking bear will strike first. If it goes after her first you'll have a gun. If it attacks you first she'll have a gun. If it tries to split the difference you'll both have guns. Much better than trying to be the sole guardian.

 

[Ash]

Heh, we had a mountain lion in our valley once (called our camp site Panther's Glenn after that). Real nervous feeling that was!

Ash

 

[PirateJoe]

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/bigbore/1895G.aspx

 

[krellor]

I can sympathize with not being comforted while zipped up in a mummy bag, I've had some unnerving nighttime visitors. I even had a mule dear decide to walk over my tent rather than around it once, which has made me nervous of them at night ever since.

Ed, you bring up good suggestions, although I would assure you that I am not rushing out to buy a gun. I have been contemplating it for quite some time. Unfortunately for me I live in a small town and would have to drive quite a ways to find a NRA class. Where I live it is considered abnormal to not have a long gun of some sort, making me the oddball in my town. While this gives me access to many gun owners most of them are familiar with weapons to drive off the local predators from farms, occasional deer hunting/running deer off, and fowling. Few people around here have any real experience in the back woods or with large predators, which is why I am seeking advice from those who do.

I do completely agree with a pair of revolvers for both of us... plus a long gun. Maybe it seems stubborn of me to keep going back to the idea of a long gun, but i still think that at 30 or 50 yards I would have a hard time fatally wounding a charging bear or damaging it enough to insure that it is deterred. The pair of revolvers works great in the situation you described, but in the event that I do have a little bit more space between me and the bear, I want a long gun to take advantage of it.

As far as getting used to guns and firing a variety of weapons, as I said above, I know many people with guns, just not with experience in the back woods and large predators. My father in law for one, who is retired career army with a sizable collection, and my uncle (different uncle than above) who is an avid fowler. Before I actually buy a gun I will work my way through their collection and see what I prefer as far as type of fire arm. But once I know the type (lever, pump, auto/revolver, clip) I want to have the information neccessary to stop a large predator such as what kind of rounds (slug or shot, 2 3/4 or 3", 0, 00, 000) etc... to use as well as specific models to look over.

Ash, I do appreciate your advice, I was trying to help you with your stowing problem. Looking at your picture there... are those external frame packs? In someone elses words "There's your problem". My personal favorite to load up gear the the Osprey Crescent 85, although the 70 can still hold respectable gear. I don't remember the pack model that we built the gun carrier on, but it was a pack from osprey (internal frame).

Pirate, thanks for the rifle suggestion. That does look like a good choice given size and weight. Now I just need to decide if it is better than the versatility of a shotgun. Bah, I just don't know.

Again, I really do appreciate all of the advice.

 

[whitetiger7654]

Maybe it seems stubborn of me to keep going back to the idea of a long gun, but i still think that at 30 or 50 yards I would have a hard time fatally wounding a charging bear or damaging it enough to insure that it is deterred.

Don't feel bad. The long gun is the best choice in any situation no matter who or where you are or what the attacker is. It's just a matter of comfortably carrying it.

 

[Ash]

Ah, but I absolutely despise internals. Externals are lighter empty and allow for better external storage. And, in our area, externals are cooler for the warmer months as they support up and away from the back. I have hiked many, many, many miles with externals, starting with a High Sierra and moving to this Kelty. I don't rock-climb, so the value of an internal frame becomes merely a matter of choice. To each his own. You'll note that two of the guys in the photo are wearing internal frames. I took no offense about the suggestion. Hikers share philosophies and advice all across the board. It's all good stuff. What you end up with is what you are most comfortable with. My pack fits me so much like a glove that my shoulders feel just about nothing save for the chest strap. Indeed, the suspension of the entire pack is so good that it is hard to tell the difference between 35 and 45 pounds except at the end of the day!

Ash

 

[stevereno1]

A thompson .45 carbine with a 20 round mag would be perfect for bear protection. also does wonders for hippies!

 

[TallPine]

With external frame packs, you can take the sack off and lash on things like moose quarters, woodstoves, lumber, airplane parts, etc