Long range shots against a human target?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mr_dove

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
645
Location
Denver
There's always alot of talk about taking shots out to 300-600 yards but I can't think of a time when a shot like that would be justifiable in or out of a SHTF scenario.

I don't think there are ANY conditions where it would be justifiable under normal circumstances. In a SHTF situation....maybe but still unlikely.

How can you really identify a threat or identify someones intentions from that far away. Even a person who is armed or a group of people aren't necessarily threatening at that distance.

To look at it another way, what can a person do at that distance that would make you consider them to be a deadly threat? Even when/if SHTF i don't plan on just sniping everyone who comes within that distance.
 
It is a good question, in my immediate area of Southeastern Massachusetts there would not be a shot of more than two hundred yards. Period. Trees, shrubs, houses, etc. Nothing longer than that until you got out to the sea. Then all of the sudden the distances get huge!
 
Totally hypothetical, highly unlikely.

You don’t have to be defending yourself. Someone could be chasing after a family member with the intent to kill them. If someone chased your kid/wife/whatever down the street for 300+ yards (while you got your gun out and ready), you would probably be justified for shooting them in the back at long range.
 
If a large group of formerly hostile (and potentially hostile once again) people were running away from me, and I had to pause and reload or something, I can see where it'd be possible to let one or two of them get out to 300+ yards before taking them down.

Other than that, the only non-warfare scenario I can think of would be if I needed to deliver protection/assistance to a group of friendlies and I hadn't arrived on the scene yet.
 
The only scenario in which 300 yard shots against human targets would happen is all-out combat, i.e. war, as has been pointed out in this thread.

But you know something? Wars can and do happen. Warfare is an occupational hazard of living as a human being.

Check out Sarajevo for an example.

That city hosted a Winter Olympics not that long ago. Now look at it.

hillbilly
 
sure.

take that shot and eat a mortar or worse. you don't take shots like that in combat and i must assume you are talking about combat because anything else is just homicide and we don't practice that here. besides, you might not have your gun vise handy...hell there might not even be a shooting bench upon which to mount your gun vice.

jesus.

okay, okay. so here's some advice.

assuming warfare, never expose yourself to your enemy's fire support. never, never, never. fight smart, live long.

besides, the chances of you hitting an aware (and here i mean he knows you are out there and intends to avoid your plinking) target who is running and jumping and dodging is just a bit optimistic. 'cause the facts is that you ain't gonna' hit him.

but he will know where you are just as soon as you squeeze that trigger...so you better understand the terrain, his strength and your own resolve before you even think about intentionally engaging an enemy at that kind of range...because once you're in, why then you're in.

know what i mean?

lord protect us from the eventuality.

amen.

doc
 
Well, maybe if the guy looked like a prarie dog at 300+ yards and I had nothin' better to do . . . I mean, prarie dogs are dangerous right? They're varmits, right? And Coyotes are varmits, and they can be dangerous. And they make a whole class of firearms designed to protect us against varmits! So, so it would be my civic duty to protect my fellow citizens against prarie dogs. :p

On a serious note, if I spotted a bunch of Jihadists loading up a dump truck with explosives, I'd be sorely tempted to express ship a few cases of 7.62 via my USGI deliver service, regardless of distance.
 
I don't think there are ANY conditions where it would be justifiable under normal circumstances.
Click to expand...

PAX

Charlie Whitman.
Click to expand...

Or any other person aiming a rifle at me from 300-600 yards.


Extremely hypothetical and extremely unlikely but 30 years ago who foresaw;"going postal", random school shootings, mall shootings, 9-11, anthrax, etc...

NukemJim
 
besides, you might not have your gun vise handy
...
'cause the facts is that you ain't gonna' hit him.
...
but he will know where you are just as soon as you squeeze that trigger
Click to expand...
No vise or bench needed. I've done 900m shots with just the built-in bipod and a sandbag.

People tend to move slowly. Fast erratic movement doesn't last for long.

Odds are he won't hear a thing.

Yes it can be done, no you don't need much more than just a 1MOA rifle and a good scope, yes there are a few limited circumstances where it's appropriate, yes it will invite an area-of-effect response. War happens.
 
besides, the chances of you hitting an aware
Click to expand...

I'm pretty confident a 600 yard target isnt going to be aware of you, because if he was, he would be trying to relocate our of your sight and you wouldnt be able to hit him. I really cant envision a 600 yard shot around here. A 100 yard shot maybe. 300 yards if you walk all the way out to the highway and shoot at someone down the street. Florida just doesnt have lots of tall buildings or mountains or wide open spaces. Everything is jungle and burbs.

I can see 200 yards if you spot someone committing a violent felony against another people and you have a low mag scope or irons. With decent (9x) optics, 400 yards is definitely a feasible range to identify and stop a violent crime, assuming you have enough rifle and enough skill. With a 308 or similar, getting a torso hit on someone at 400 yards shouldnt be challenging unless it is practically your first time picking up the gun.
 
Facing a Charles Whitman would fit the definition of all-out combat.

He had basically declared a one-man war against all that he could see on the Texas campus.

And doc tc, you are, of course in your infinite wisdom, completely correct.

You have, in only your 8th post to this forum, effectively demonstrated that the entire United States Marine Corps' rifle training program, the United States Army's Designated Marksmanship Program, and all sniper training programs of every kind, every where are completely, totally, absolutely worthless and should be dropped immediately.

You are, of course, 100% correct in that nobody on the face of planet earth is actually capable of hitting a human-sized target at 300 yards under any circumstances, and that actually spending millions of dollars training people to do just that is a total waste of time, money, and effort.

Of course it's impossible.

Doc tc can't hit stuff at 300 yards without a rifle vise mounted on a shooting bench, so obviously, nobody else can do it either.

We'd all be so much better off if only the Secret Service, the FBI, the Marines, the Army, the Navy Seals, the Coast Guard, the Air Force, and just about every other military force on the face of planet earth would just listen to the sage wisdom of doc tc and realize that hitting humans beyond 300 yards in combat is just impossible, and to quit training personnel to take and make such shots.

Imagine the money and time that would be saved.

Oh yeah, somebody also needs to tell all the people who've been shot and killed by aimed rifle fire at 300 yards and beyond in combat that they need to dig themselves up and resume eating, drinking, laughing, and loving because they're not really dead, because it's not possible that they were shot and killed at distances beyond 300 yards.

Doc tc says so. So it must be.

hillbilly
 
In suburban Maryland there are plenty of potential 800m shots, just need a little elevation and straight road. During that "beltway sniper" thing a couple of years ago, how open a dense urban or suburban enviroment can be, really hit home.

When there's a madman out there randomly shooting people, a 1000m becomes very close. Those long 300-600m distances are an unnerving stones throw away.

Shooting people 300-600m away, that's a situation and judgement call. 300 meters can be a definite safety zone, and 600m can be too close for comfort.
 
Anywhere west of the mississippi.

As one who has shot Prairie dogs at 500+ yards, yes i would and I know that there would be instances where in a SHTF scenario, it would be very likely to do so.

Letting someone know that they are not welcome and that they need to find an easier place to take resupply from. In a EOTWAWKI scenario, I am now worried about crew served weapons. I am worried about small bands of small arms carrying thugs. I would prefer to engage you and your AK with my rifle at ranges farther than your AK will shoot. If I can make hits on a PD at 500+yards. I can slow you down at 7-800+ yards with my rifle. It may not kill you, but it will mess you up in an arena where Med-evac does not exist.

I live in suburbia, but just 36 miles from my front door is my BiL's farm. From his front porch it is 1134 yards to the end of the driveway. (aren't GPS and Laser ranger finders cool?) His Silo is a 1940's model cast concrete model from which I can see 7 miles down his county road, and at least 2 miles in all directions. Are there places where a normal man can justify a long shot in SHTF scenario's? yup lots of them
 
How about this scenario:

You live in a rural area out west, on some acreage. Your next-door neighbors live a quater-mile away, but within line of sight. You see some strangers approach your neightbor's home, and gunfire breaks out. It may be a pistol/shotgun fight between the burglars and your neighbors, but (assuming you know the neighbors and trust their judgement) you could help them out with long-range rifle fire, especially a BG takes cover from the neighbors and presents you a good shot.
 
Obviously no one knows the circumstances in which they might, someday, need to use a firearm to defend their life. Dispite the internet geniuses posting otherwise. I have read countless posts over the years making statements like "x% of defensive shootings occur at "x" distance, so that is what I am going to practice". Ok, what happens if you are ever presented witha situation you never envisioned ? What if you are someday presented with an obvious threat to your life and the only solution is you using a firearm to defend your life.....and the other guy is at 50 yards ? Again, you have no way of knowing IF you will ever need a firearm to defend your life, let alone the exact circumstances.
So, it pays to be prepared.
You can't possibly practice for every possible senario, but you can try.
I know for a fact that I can hit a standing human shaped target at well over 500 yards on the first shot from a field postion using a rifle. I know for a fact that I can make a head shot on a standing human target at three meters with a handgun after drawing from a concealed holster in 1.3 seconds. I know for a fact that I can hit a human shaped target in the boiler room on the first shot at 100 yards using a handgun. This give me a lot more confort than practicing one senario and refusing to believe that anything else is possible.


Let's forget SHTF and all that.
People practice the martial arts. There are almost an endless number of styles, and techniques. In any town or city of any size in the United States, martial arts facilities exist. People who are involved in these arts do so for a variety of reasons. Some do so because they honestly believe they might someday need these skills to defend themselves. Others might just do it for an aerobic workout. This is considered "normal" in our society.
IMO, shooting guns is just another, more modern form of the martial arts. Instead of swords, staffs, and all that stuff, we practice the art of using rifles, submachine guns, handguns, shotguns etc. Some people do this because they honestly believe they might use the art to defend their life. Others do it simply as a form of recreation. Like any other martial artist we don't want to be one dimensional. We want to be able to handle any situation that presents itself. Whether we might ever have to actually do this is beside the point. We practice for it anyway. Again, the reasons for doing this vary. I see someone that practices shooting a handgun at seven yards without using a holster, concealment, reloads, malfunciton drills etc. to be very similar to a karate student who only knows how to punch with his right hand and knows no other techniques.
 
I practice it many times a year and most of it is at 600 yards. NO scope with a ar15. Multiple hits in a short time on multible targets are very easy. At 500 yards to miss I would have to have made a big mistake in windage, Kinda hard to do at that short range. Under that standing, sitting or kneeling for head shots is easy. I have fired a scoped rifle of a few friends before at the 600 yard range and it is a kick to see the impact in real time.

Why practice it and get VERY good at it. Because I can. Will I ever use it? Most likely not but hell folks do defensive pistol shoots all the time for practice so why not practice this.
I get a kick out of folks watching it. I have several police friends that have been to the range with me for practice. I like to put two shilouette's up at 600 yards. Pull out a open site ar15 out of the case lay down at 600 yards put a mag in it and fire a shot. dead center, Have someone put a 3 inch spotter on it and then hit the spotter on the next shot. Then put 15 shots in each target in under 50 seconds. Sometimes I will put 3 out and hit each one 10 times in the same time.
then after that I well sit down and teach them to do it if they wish. Have taught many shooters the finer points of it. Some get real good at it.

Jon
 
I practice it many times a year and most of it is at 600 yards. NO scope with a ar15. Multiple hits in a short time on multible targets are very easy. At 500 yards to miss I would have to have made a big mistake in windage, Kinda hard to do at that short range. Under that standing, sitting or kneeling for head shots is easy. I have fired a scoped rifle of a few friends before at the 600 yard range and it is a kick to see the impact in real time.

Why practice it and get VERY good at it. Because I can. Will I ever use it? Most likely not but hell folks do defensive pistol shoots all the time for practice so why not practice this.
I get a kick out of folks watching it. I have several police friends that have been to the range with me for practice. I like to put two shilouette's up at 600 yards. Pull out a open site ar15 out of the case lay down at 600 yards put a mag in it and fire a shot. dead center, Have someone put a 3 inch spotter on it and then hit the spotter on the next shot. Then put 15 shots in each target in under 50 seconds. Sometimes I will put 3 out and hit each one 10 times in the same time.
then after that I well sit down and teach them to do it if they wish. Have taught many shooters the finer points of it. Some get real good at it.

Jon
Click to expand...

Holy elevation adjustment, Batman!

I used to think of myself as a solid shot because I regularly dust PD's @ 500 yards with my 22-250's.
a .223 outperforming a 22-250.. WITH OPEN SIGHTS nonetheless. Who'd have thunk it?:rolleyes:
 
Two more examples of why it might be useful to shoot someone at long range outside of war.

John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo
 
Yelp most folks can do it if trained properly.
Just go to the United States National championships NTIT match. You will see my name and my team finished right behind the United States Army Marksmanship team last year. Since I have been on the team we keep having best years scores the last 2 years for CO. In all team events also.
I also coach the second team which we put the newer shooters on or the ones who did not make the first team for many reasons. Like they coach and captain the first team. I use 7x50 bino's to adjust the windage and by watching the bullets path and will call any adjustments to my shooters during the string on the shilouettes.

I have tried it at 800 for kicks and its not a good ideal with a magazine feed round. Single loading vld bullets at 800 and beyound is really really good but its easy to miss a wind call at those distances. Plus to get enough elevation you will need to rotate the front site. That is why I have a dedicated upper just for 800, 900 and 1,000 yard distances for my ar15.
I have a complete rifle that only gets used in those shilouette rattle battle matches. It gets fired in one match a year plus many practices. Will put it another way for you. I just replaced the barrel in it as the throat was starting to erode to the point I can not trust it to get me threw the season. So 4 years on it was not bad. How many folks would put a new match barrel on when they shoot it at one match a year. So how many rounds in practice I get on it a year.
Oh yeah the sights are easy I just click it up from the 3/8 setting at close ranges up to either 5 or 6 for the longer ranges works well on a shilouette.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
SHTF Scenario???
2 3
Replies
52
Views
2K
Fred Fuller
F
N
  • Locked
When NOT to shoot
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
JohnKSa
JohnKSa
C
  • Locked
Shooting from Ambush
Replies
15
Views
577
Fred Fuller
F
T
  • Locked
Armed bank robbery, shot fired. Appropriate action?
2
Replies
36
Views
1K
Dksimon
D
N
  • Locked
Watercooler Commandos?
2
Replies
37
Views
3K
Jeff White
J
Back
Top