Long range shots against a human target?
- Thread starter mr_dove
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What if these guys 300 yards to 600 yards away had lifted my generator and cooler, and before I got wind of it they were two blocks away.
Since that cooler would contain my son's insulin and glucagon, I would shoot to get my cooler back if no other prospects were available to replace its contents.
Since that cooler would contain my son's insulin and glucagon, I would shoot to get my cooler back if no other prospects were available to replace its contents.
whatever.
whether or not a shooter can make a long shot is obviously a function of rifle capability, the shooter's skill and his pyschological makeup. obviously the weapons are out there to do it and there are plenty of folks with the skill set to do it and apparently a number who can handle the mental stress, or so they think.
fine. so some actually want to be snipers. some could be. fewer should be. anybody got their panties in a knot over that statement?
didn't think so.
look, we're not talking about shooting prairie dogs here.
i don't care if you are the best on the block and that you can take the shot and by god you can make the shot and that you can be real happy with it.
let me say this as clearly as i know how: it is my opinion that in most situations the long range shot is a pretty damn poor tactic for a number of very good reasons.
check this out, it's a pretty good read.
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/range.html
and just to be absolutely clear, i am not some armchair philosopher laying down the theory. i was a track commander and medical NCO in a recon troop with the 11th Cav in Vietnam and Cambodia and i was a line medic with the
5th Mechnized up on on the DMZ and in Laos. i know how it works. i put kids in bags when it didn't work. oh yeah, and i worked the burn center at Brooke Army in San Antonio so i know what rockets and mortars mean long term.
just so there is no misunderstanding.
doc
whether or not a shooter can make a long shot is obviously a function of rifle capability, the shooter's skill and his pyschological makeup. obviously the weapons are out there to do it and there are plenty of folks with the skill set to do it and apparently a number who can handle the mental stress, or so they think.
fine. so some actually want to be snipers. some could be. fewer should be. anybody got their panties in a knot over that statement?
didn't think so.
look, we're not talking about shooting prairie dogs here.
i don't care if you are the best on the block and that you can take the shot and by god you can make the shot and that you can be real happy with it.
let me say this as clearly as i know how: it is my opinion that in most situations the long range shot is a pretty damn poor tactic for a number of very good reasons.
check this out, it's a pretty good read.
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/range.html
and just to be absolutely clear, i am not some armchair philosopher laying down the theory. i was a track commander and medical NCO in a recon troop with the 11th Cav in Vietnam and Cambodia and i was a line medic with the
5th Mechnized up on on the DMZ and in Laos. i know how it works. i put kids in bags when it didn't work. oh yeah, and i worked the burn center at Brooke Army in San Antonio so i know what rockets and mortars mean long term.
just so there is no misunderstanding.
doc
Grump
Member
Wastemore:
Run some ballistics and you'll see that a few .223/5.56mm rounds will shoot flatter at 600 yards than other popular .308/7.62x51 "long range" loads.
I'm just not going to do your homework for you.
But if you mean correcting for 5 feet or so of drop is "lobbing", then yeah, you're right.
I'll lob them any day if the situation calls for it. No one in their right mind would want to intercept one of those "lobs" with their body.
Run some ballistics and you'll see that a few .223/5.56mm rounds will shoot flatter at 600 yards than other popular .308/7.62x51 "long range" loads.
I'm just not going to do your homework for you.
But if you mean correcting for 5 feet or so of drop is "lobbing", then yeah, you're right.
I'll lob them any day if the situation calls for it. No one in their right mind would want to intercept one of those "lobs" with their body.
Darkness
Member
Dang, some of you guys are good.
If I was shooting at a person who was 600 yards away from me, regardless of the rifle or round I was using, scoped or iron, and he was wearing a bright orange jumpsuit with a 12 inch white circle on his chest, and there was no wind, in broad daylight, and I was using a rest with all the time in the world to set up the shot... well, most likely any buildings or cars in the guy's surrounding area might be in trouble, but chances are, the dude could eat a sandwich with chips and finish off a large drink before I could even kick up dirt from the ground near him. Get him into pistol range and it's another story.
Guess I need to practice up with the rifle a bit.
If I was shooting at a person who was 600 yards away from me, regardless of the rifle or round I was using, scoped or iron, and he was wearing a bright orange jumpsuit with a 12 inch white circle on his chest, and there was no wind, in broad daylight, and I was using a rest with all the time in the world to set up the shot... well, most likely any buildings or cars in the guy's surrounding area might be in trouble, but chances are, the dude could eat a sandwich with chips and finish off a large drink before I could even kick up dirt from the ground near him. Get him into pistol range and it's another story.
Guess I need to practice up with the rifle a bit.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
why do some folks think JUST because you have the SKILL to hit someone out at a longer distance that you will ever need to use it?
Do some of you think that a person with great SKILLS in marksmanship at long ranges SUCK at 200 and 300 yards? Or is all the down talking about long range skills just a excuse to cover up NO skills at those ranges by some folks?
I really do not give a $^%# as I will most likely NEVER ever be in combat and at 51 do not think I will be. What the hell does that article have to do with me being able to hit a shilouette at 600 yards or a person for that matter.
A person just has to know their skills and if yours is jumping around in a idpa match or a 3 gun match then go for it. I just like making a ar15, M1A or anything else with open sights dance at distance.
If a person does the things in those articles then he more than likely deserves to die. That same guy most likely would take the shot at dusk or fire more than 1 shot. Do you really think a 223 drops that much less at 500 or 600 yards? How about I use a bolt gun in 300 mag or 6xc or what ever do you think I would suck with that. LOL
Go try a long range match sometimes and don't cheat but use those good old open sights. And I really do not care if you use a scope or not as if you beat me good for you as it happens and I get over it real fast as the next weekend rolls around pretty fast.
Do some of you think that a person with great SKILLS in marksmanship at long ranges SUCK at 200 and 300 yards? Or is all the down talking about long range skills just a excuse to cover up NO skills at those ranges by some folks?
I really do not give a $^%# as I will most likely NEVER ever be in combat and at 51 do not think I will be. What the hell does that article have to do with me being able to hit a shilouette at 600 yards or a person for that matter.
A person just has to know their skills and if yours is jumping around in a idpa match or a 3 gun match then go for it. I just like making a ar15, M1A or anything else with open sights dance at distance.
If a person does the things in those articles then he more than likely deserves to die. That same guy most likely would take the shot at dusk or fire more than 1 shot. Do you really think a 223 drops that much less at 500 or 600 yards? How about I use a bolt gun in 300 mag or 6xc or what ever do you think I would suck with that. LOL
Go try a long range match sometimes and don't cheat but use those good old open sights. And I really do not care if you use a scope or not as if you beat me good for you as it happens and I get over it real fast as the next weekend rolls around pretty fast.
I agree Jon.
I don't know what the article has to do with me, or the thread topic. The first post clearly states that he is talking about the civilian use of firearms. The article advices that rather than giving away your postion to call in arty or an air strike. Where they really lost me was using a movie to make one of his points about the German Army during WWII: "You see this in "Cross of Iron" in the warehouse scene :- while the guys with automatic weapons keep the Russians back the rifleman takes his time and makes his shots count." I own a copy of the movie on VHS that I bought before DVD. But I wasn't watching it as a training video.
I don't know what the article has to do with me, or the thread topic. The first post clearly states that he is talking about the civilian use of firearms. The article advices that rather than giving away your postion to call in arty or an air strike. Where they really lost me was using a movie to make one of his points about the German Army during WWII: "You see this in "Cross of Iron" in the warehouse scene :- while the guys with automatic weapons keep the Russians back the rifleman takes his time and makes his shots count." I own a copy of the movie on VHS that I bought before DVD. But I wasn't watching it as a training video.
Plenty of folks never made it across "Sniper Alley" and similar areas in Sarajevo when things were hot.
A number of folks have been getting away with shooting at people from a distance in Iraq, on both sides.
While I agree that the typical infantryman does not need to worry so much about enemy outside danger close range, there will always be room for the specialist and whatever tools he deems necessary for the task at hand.
As for the average board member, there are plenty of open areas where self defence may require reaching out quite a way to return fire. This can be done with most rifles if you have practiced enough, and a good understanding of your capabilities and limitations with your rifle can help you to understand the difference between random fire and someone who definitely has found your range.
Realistically, if a good shot wants you dead, sooner or later he will get that shot. Frequent patrols supported with artillery will help, but not enough to keep a professional away. With luck none of us will ever have to face such a person.
A number of folks have been getting away with shooting at people from a distance in Iraq, on both sides.
While I agree that the typical infantryman does not need to worry so much about enemy outside danger close range, there will always be room for the specialist and whatever tools he deems necessary for the task at hand.
As for the average board member, there are plenty of open areas where self defence may require reaching out quite a way to return fire. This can be done with most rifles if you have practiced enough, and a good understanding of your capabilities and limitations with your rifle can help you to understand the difference between random fire and someone who definitely has found your range.
Realistically, if a good shot wants you dead, sooner or later he will get that shot. Frequent patrols supported with artillery will help, but not enough to keep a professional away. With luck none of us will ever have to face such a person.
The point is that even in a military environment (unless you're a sniper), you're unlikely to need to fire a shot at someone that far away for the reasons mentioned. If the military boys have no need for it, why should a civilian need to worry about it in any practical sense?
At the core, it's accentuating what you guys said; however, if it makes people happy to play ninja-sniper for SHTF or whatever reason, more power to them - we all shoot for different reasons
At the core, it's accentuating what you guys said; however, if it makes people happy to play ninja-sniper for SHTF or whatever reason, more power to them - we all shoot for different reasons
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
My coach, team mate, good friend was one of those guys back in the late 60's and is very well respected by his peers. As are several other friends of mine.
Do I ever ask them about their experiences? NO I do not nor ever will. None of my bussiness. I have heard him answer questions but I do not ask.
Does my mall ninja butt slink around in the grass? No! well I do own a few pairs of camo pants I wear during elk season. Very comfy, Lots of pockets and best of all if I get blood on them I do not care.
so am I a mall ninja because I spend if you add it up about 3 full weeks of my time a year teaching and coaching juniors FREE so they can become the best marksman they can be. I think our program works ok . You be the judge? would two national titles last year work for you. sorry if it was not down at the local mall. And that was with losing two of our best shooters to the Army Marksmanship Unit.
What do you think about the military asking Civilians to teach marksmanship?
Yeah thats right they have and it is a very productive program. You should look into it. It was so successfull a 2 star general flew in just to give a few awards to a few friends and some others that were the first to help jump start the program. Do you know how many folks can even qualify to do it? Trust me not very many and do I qualify? Yeah I do qualify. I already work for the ARMY and will retire in 3 years. If the program is still needed (I truely hope not GOD willing) I will do it. It is pretty easy to see if you qualify just go to the site and check it out. My name is not hard to find thats why I use it.
444
You are right and why limit anyones skills if they have the desire to learn.
P.S. I kinda like the mall ninja look as it makes us look harmless to the experts.
Do I ever ask them about their experiences? NO I do not nor ever will. None of my bussiness. I have heard him answer questions but I do not ask.
Does my mall ninja butt slink around in the grass? No! well I do own a few pairs of camo pants I wear during elk season. Very comfy, Lots of pockets and best of all if I get blood on them I do not care.
so am I a mall ninja because I spend if you add it up about 3 full weeks of my time a year teaching and coaching juniors FREE so they can become the best marksman they can be. I think our program works ok . You be the judge? would two national titles last year work for you. sorry if it was not down at the local mall. And that was with losing two of our best shooters to the Army Marksmanship Unit.
What do you think about the military asking Civilians to teach marksmanship?
Yeah thats right they have and it is a very productive program. You should look into it. It was so successfull a 2 star general flew in just to give a few awards to a few friends and some others that were the first to help jump start the program. Do you know how many folks can even qualify to do it? Trust me not very many and do I qualify? Yeah I do qualify. I already work for the ARMY and will retire in 3 years. If the program is still needed (I truely hope not GOD willing) I will do it. It is pretty easy to see if you qualify just go to the site and check it out. My name is not hard to find thats why I use it.
444
You are right and why limit anyones skills if they have the desire to learn.
P.S. I kinda like the mall ninja look as it makes us look harmless to the experts.
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