Looking for a "just because" .308 semi auto rifle

[Hanzo581]

well spooky you may have just made my decision

what about this?

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?pa...ufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

can I get 20 rd mags for it as well?

 

[soul_rapier]

what about a G3 seems to be a good gun never seen one jam this is goin thru 1000 rounds it may jam don't know it haven't jammed yet

 

[Hanzo581]

a real G3 is out of my price range, however I am entertaining the idea of a clone, but now alot of votes are going the way of the saiga

 

[soul_rapier]

yeah they are a little high $ here's one reasonable http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=57905403

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I don't understand why someone would pay that kind of money for a rifle they are going to have problems finding magazines and accessories for. Keep in mind I love the AK. It makes an excellent rifle in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. But I don't see how it has anything over a FAL as a 7.62x51 rifle. And the FAL makes it a lot easier to find parts, accessories, and mags for. Mags for the FAL are like $10, compared to a sale price of over $30 for the Saiga mags. Are you serious?

My $.02.

 

[Hanzo581]

MilitiaMan

ok, so what model would you suggest at or under $1k?

I am not counting the FAL out, there are just so many of those type rifles that look alike I am getting a bit confused

if I were to expand on my budget would this

http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58TAC&storeid=1&image=sa58mwtact.gif

be a good choice?

 

[rangerruck]

Saiga, saiga, or saiga. For 300 bucks or less, you will get a rifle that , yes, will have plasticy furniture, but will out shoot accuracy wise proly any other 308 on the market. Saiga makes a fantastic bbl, they just dont worry about the furniture.

 

[hexidismal]

Where are you finding Saiga 308s for $300 or less ? More like $400 I would think.

 

[MyRoad]

I've been eye-balling this for weeks... they have one left, and someone should buy this gun.

Saiga .308/21.8"/Synthetic for $329

http://www.classicarms.us/

(scroll almost half-way down the very long page)

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I have no doubt that the Saiga is a very good rifle and initially could be less expensive than the FAL or HK91 clone, but I think in the end, the cheaper mags and more available accessories for the FAL and HK will be worth the extra dough. For under a grand, I would probably go with a DS Arms Austrian FAL of the barrel length I preferred. If at a later time I choose to replace the forward handguard, I could do that pretty easily and fairly inexpensively.

 

[Mumbles_45]

a few years ago I ignored all the advice telling me to get an FAL and got a PTR-91. It was a well made gun but I was never really happy with it. After trying to like it for so long I finally gave up and sold it to buy an FAL. I really wish I had gotten the FAL to begin with. The reasons are in my first post on page 1. The only other .308 battle rifle I would consider is the M1A, but they've always been out of my price range, and I think I like the FAL just a little bit more anyway (still gonna get an M1A someday though). I got my FAL at a gunshow for $650.

 

[Correia]

I'm the guy cslinger is talking about, and I'm one of the owners of FBMG.

The 20 rounders are almost ready to ship. We're having to make another round of tweaks to the mold, and if these test okay, we're ready to roll. The link below will lead you to pictures and video of some of our beta testers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=224788&highlight=saiga

I'm a FAL guy too, but the days of cheap, good FALs is over. The parts kits are pretty much gone. (and I've built my own FALs out of parts). DSA is the only decent manufacturer of new FALs, and they cost about 4 times what a Saiga does.

The whole reason we took on this mag project was because PvtPyle and I both thought that the Saiga .308 was one heck of a rifle, but the lack of a 20 round magazine was killing it.

The reason the mags cost more is because we've dropped about 50K of our own money into getting these things made. FAL and G3 mags are cheap because they were used by hundred of countries and there were millions of mags made. It is an entirely different thing.

For the price difference between a base Saiga and a base DSA you could buy 20 of my magazines at full retail.

 

[SnakeEater]

PTR-91. I have put it up against M1A and FAL weilding fellas numerous times and it always comes out on top. Part of that is probably my skill but the rifle itself has never let me down.

 

[Mumbles_45]

come out on top in what way? Accuracy? Yeah, I'm sure the PTR beats out the other two. Reliability? Yeah, I'd believe that too. Not that the other two have had issues in my experience, but my PTR was AK-like in its reliability. Any other category, like mag changes, or CQM, its all you, 'cause the rifle certainly isn't giving you any advantages.

 

[SnakeEater]

I had a genuine HK paddle mag release installed on mine, so no, I don't feel that mag changes are a disadvantage. CQM? If you are referring to CQB I also believe the shorter length of the PTR is an advantage over the FAL and M1A. To add meaningful facts to this discussion I'm posting some stats below. That being said, I really want a DSA Tactical Carbine very, very badly. And if you're listening Santa, an AR-10A4 would be nice too.

PTR-91
weight- 9.17 lbs
overall length- 40 inches
sight radius- 22.52 inches

M1A
weight- 9.2 lbs
overall length- 44 1/3 inches
sight radius- 26 3/4 inches

DSA FAL
weight- 8.75 lbs
overall length- 43 inches
sight radius- 22 inches

 

[Mumbles_45]

paddle mag release or not, with an FAL I can hit the mag release with my trigger finger and let the empty mag drop while bringing up the new mag and hit the bolt release with my thumb as soon as its locked in, same as with an AR. With a G-3 clone, even with a paddle release you'd have to pull the mag off the rifle with your non-firing hand like you would with an AK, once you've decided what to do with the empty, you have to use that same non firing hand to put in the new mag, then switch hands and pull back the charging handle with your firing hand. While someone with a lot of practice on a PTR might be faster than someone new to the FAL, someone with equal practice on both is going to be faster on the FAL, there are just fewer movements to perform.

As to the CQM/CQB, I was subconsciously comparing my FAL carbine to my full size PTR. My bad. Even fullsize vs. fullsize I'd still take the FAL though, due to the faster mag changes. I'd even take the M1A over the PTR for close range. I think the M1A's last shot bolt hold open is a bigger advantage over the PTR's shorter length and pistol grip.

 

[Hanzo581]

Ok, I think after some searching and google'ing I have made my decision

what are you guys thoughts on this?


http://www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=SA58TAC&storeid=1&image=sa58mwtact.gif

 

[SnakeEater]

Very nice! Are you not sticking to the $1000 limit anymore?

 

[Hanzo581]

well the msrp is $1595, I am hoping I can find one lower, around $1300 since msrp's seem higher than actual sale prices, but yes, my financial advisor has lifted my budget to $1500 tops

 

[Nightcrawler]

CQM? If you are referring to CQB I also believe the shorter length of the PTR is an advantage over the FAL and M1A. To add meaningful facts to this discussion I'm posting some stats below.

I don't think it's fair to compare a 17.75" barreled G3 clone to a 22" barreled M14 clone or a 21" barreled FAL clone.

Both the FAL and the M14 types can now be had with 18" and 16" barrels. The PTR-91 can also be had with a 16" barrel, which would be my choice. My 16" Franken-FAL carbine has an overall length of under 38". It's shorter than my 18" M870 shotgun. If you want to pay the $200 tax, you can get a DSA FAL with a 13" or an 11" barrel, even.

Again, there is crooning about FBMG's price of Saiga .308 magazines. They run about $35.00 apiece. It's important to remember the reason that FAL and G3 magazines are inexpensive is because there all surplus from foreign militaries and thusly don't command much value. DPMS wants like fifty dollars for the 20-round magazines for their .308 AR clones. Armalite wants around forty dollars for theirs, I believe, and even a surplus M14 magazine will run you thirty five nowadays.

A DSA SA-58 Carbine, new from the factory (after you wait for their backlog) will run you $1200 and up, most likely. An FMBG/Tromix converted .308 Sagia, pistol grip converted with an ACE folding stock, will cost you under eight hundred, if I recall correctly. You could buy plenty of Saiga mags, or even a spare non-converted Saiga .308 for parts, with the price difference.

Don't get me wrong, I love my FAL, but let's not bash the Tromix Saiga .308 because it's different.

 

[Hanzo581]

NightCrawler

So you are suggesting this?

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?pa...ufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

I do like the price, as the remainder of my budget could be use for ammo, mags, accessories etc

 

[Nightcrawler]

Yes. I've handled, but not shot, that rifle, or one very like it. They're pretty slick.

For more money, you can get them with G3 type drum sights, rail handguards, etc. Tromix has a ton of custom options.

What made me decide against one of these is that you can't mount an Aimpoint on it. MEANING, the .308 won't accept an Ultimak mount. However, that's only because I'm left handed. Most of the Russian siderail mounts are offset to the left, which would make them very awkard for me to use. For a righty, or if you want a Kobra sight, or if you just want the irons, it's a non-issue. You can get low-mounts that will set the optic virtually on top of the dust cover, or more traditional siderail mounts. Plus, there is an interesting variety of Russian optics out there that use the siderail mount.

I've seen the magazines they've designed, too. They're sturdier than the original factory mags, so they should hold up okay. They torture tested one by throwing it around the parking lot, stepping on it, etc.

Now, to be fair, yes, you're looking at magazines available from only one supplier. The same could be said for the DPMS .308, and as I've mentioned, their mags are even more expensive. Worse comes to worse, you can buy the regular 8-round Saiga mags and convert them to ten rounds by shortening the follower legs slightly.

On the upshot, though, AKs are built pretty tough. It's not often that one breaks, and the majority of parts of the converted Saiga .308 are the same as any other AK. (The bolt carrier group being an obvious exception.)

So, if I didn't have my FAL already, yeah, I'd be mighty tempted by these, especially for the low price. My FAL, in its original STG-58A configuration, ran me $950 back in 2001-02. The DSA STG-58s are harder to find now, as the supply of STG parts is drying up. I've heard rumors that they've discontinued them, but I don't know that for sure.

Another option might be an Ohio Rapid Fire FAL. I've heard good things about these. They're cheaper 'cause they're made with surplus parts and, I think Imbel receivers, but I'm not positive on that.

 

[CanonNinja]

I love my PTR-91 carbine, but I've come to a point where I want a .308 tackdriver now, and I'm moving on to another platform for match-quality.. Either a custom M1A or stay a little cheaper with a DPMS LR-308 (buddy has an account with DMPS and I get a dealer price without messing with Rguns.net and their horrible policies).


That being said, I do agree the trigger sucks and the mag release is a PITA. However, BOTH can be fixed for under $200, with a trip to Bill Springfield for a basic lightening of the trigger, and a qualified smith to install the paddle release. I helped a friend do his PTR, and it turned out awesome. A little care with a drill and a damn good welder and you really don't even need to refinish the receiver, just use a little black paint to hide the blemish. The paddle release parts can be had for less than $40 if you look around hard enough.


Also, mags are $1.50 from www.interordnance.com I got 50 mags from Tapco when they went nuts with the sale for 75 CENT mags sold as "rusted" or "damaged"... I had maybe 2 mags with dents that needed attention, but not one rusted anywhere other than the floorplates.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Oops. The ORF guns are all out of stock right now. As I said, the STG-58s kits are about dried up.

The paddle release parts can be had for less than $40 if you look around hard enough.

JLD sells the Magazine Release Paddle and bushing for $12.00. I don't know if any other parts or required, or why that all of the current semiauto G3 clones lack the original flipper magazine release.

 

[Stiletto Null]

IIRC, HK put up a fight against retrofitting the button magazine release, but "US market" (importers? beats me) demanded it.

I don't remember where I read it, though. It does seem kind of ass-backwards.