Looking for a mouse gun with double strike capability

[Girodin]

've successfully used a double strike trigger action many more times than I've had to clear a fouled pistol.

On a center fire cartridge? What kind of numbers are we talking? What gun and what ammo? If I was getting light strikes on a center fire more frequently than the other much more common types of stoppages I would be getting my gun fixed (or replaced) or getting ammo that worked. It would be monumentally stupid to use ammo known to be unreliable or a gun known to be unreliable for self defense. All guns of course can have stoppages but using something you know to be problematic is different.

I can't see how anyone can argue that pulling the trigger a second time is slower than racking the slide and/or swapping mags.

Read again, closely, and you will see that no one actually argued that. Rather, what was stated was that if your semi auto goes click in lieu of bang, pulling the trigger again is wasted time. There are various reasons that you may have gotten a click. A light primer strike is far down the list on likelihood (one that will go of with a second strike would it seems have to be even further down the list). Pulling the trigger again simply is unlikely to cause a bang in the vast majority of cases. What that means is not that pulling the trigger again was slower than properly clearing the stoppage. Rather, it means that pulling the trigger again is most likely to be wasted time. Time you could have spent getting the gun back in the fight. To say it another way pulling the trigger a second time and then doing a tap rack bang is slower than simply doing a tap rack bang. In sum it is wasted movement and time, that is why people in the know do not bother with it.

Clearing a gun in the midst of being attacked is greatly overrated. If your gun malfunctions during an altercation, it instantly become a club.

I must admit that the second part of that state while true does not seem to support the first part one bit. Rather, it speaks to the importance of being very proficient at clearing stoppages and getting your gun back in the fight. Out of curiosity how long do you think it takes a decently proficient shooter to clear a malfunction? The answer to this question is obviously that it depends on the exact malfunction and how you clear it. Even a double feed that requires stripping the mag can be cleared rather quickly and a tap rack bang can be executed very very quickly indeed (quicker than I get the impression you realize) and that club is now a gun again.

If the man wants a double strike what does it matter to any of us?

It doesn't really. That said trying to help someone make a fully informed decision is not a bad thing. If his sole reason for wanting to get a different gun really isn't going to avail him anything then he might want to know that. There are many subject areas where I do not even know what the real issues and concerns are, I appreciate people telling me so that in the end my needs and desires are met.

 

[nonseven]

The Rohrbaugh R9/R9s 9mm has a double strike capability. I've never had a FTE/FTF with the Rohrbaugh, but I have had a FTF that another pull of the trigger remedied.

 

[ivydivfour]

Baretta 32 Tomcat Inox.

 

[Rex B]

the OPs concerns are legitimate.
I have carried a P3AT and an LCP, neither of which have 2nd strike capability.
I learned this when I pulled the pistol to fire and it would not fire.
This has happened to me with both pistols, thankfully at the range.

My solution has been to go with a single-action automatic.
Sig P238 or Colt Mustang.

 

[usp9]

Girodin, thanks for the rebuttal to my post... well said. However we shall have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of double strike mouse guns. Your initail post called it "a waste of time"

I have to ask why? If I get a click I would not bother to pull the trigger again (Unless it is a revolver). I would respond to a click with a tap rack bang. Various things could cause that click and pulling the trigger again is wasted time IMO.

I submit that it is a pure waste of time in a pistol lacking the feature, but in a pistol that at least has the chance of firing on the second strike, it may in fact fire. One thing is for certain, it will not fire if you don't pull the trigger.

The natural reaction to a "click" is to pull the trigger again. Again, I submit, this can be done just as fast or faster than the tap and rack. The ideal solution in my mind is to do both. However my main point was that clearing a gun is very dificult to accomplish while being beaten, kicked, knifed or whatever. Clearing drills are OK to practice, but in reality, IMHO, they are not taught with real life violence included.

"Why bother"... because it may be the only reaction you'll have a chance or prayer to save yourself. Having the capability is better than not having it.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The natural reaction to a "click" is to pull the trigger again.

If this is your reaction then you're training improperly, IMO. How many times are you going to press the trigger in attempt to make the gun fire?

Tap, roll & rack should be trained until its conditioned reflex anytime you press the trigger and the gun doesn't fire. It can be successfully performed in about a second.

What are other failures besides a primer that might need a second whack to fire?

• Magazine unseated (one shot wonder) - tap/rack
• Chamber empty (dead man’s gun) – tap/rack
• Failure to feed – tap/rack
• Failure to eject – tap/rack
• Faulty cartridge – tap/rack

Tap/rack is a common technique to successfully accomplish multiple, progressive manipulation tasks with minimal decision-making.

Incorporating tap/rack to your loading and reloading tasks further reinforces its use should you encounter a misfire.

Load:
Slide in battery - tap/rack
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during load – tap/rack

Combat reload:
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide in battery – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during reload – tap/rack

However, if the OP has difficulty operating a pistol's slide quickly to clear a stoppage then the best choice for him is a revolver, as others have already suggested.

Cheers!

 

[usp9]

Gentlemen, you are missing the point. You can train all you like, use any technique you care to employ. If you have time to clear a malfunction, if you have a free arm, if the situation warrants, then you can do all these things. If you are not able to free an arm, have no time, are already under assault, then all of this training is for naught. At that point your only recourse is to try the trigger again and/or use the gun as a club.

If you carry a gun with no restrike capability, then you can't pull the trigger again, you are left with only the club alternative.

A prudent person, IMHO, would at least carry a gun with the capability. Many of you don't... that is your choice. The OP asked for guns that had the capability. Many of you provided only reasons why he shouldn't. I've tried to reason with you as to why it is at least a good idea to have the potential. Personally I choose guns with more potential rather than less.

You are free to disagree but why must you disparage either my training...

then you're training improperly

or my knowledge,

that is why people in the know do not bother with it.

or my proficiency,

Out of curiosity how long do you think it takes a decently proficient shooter to clear a malfunction?

It just might be possible that my experience, training and proficiency far exceed yours. But this is a circular arguement...you will not change my view, I will not change your view, and I usually stay out of fruitless posts. Frankly, I can't see how anyone can possibly believe that having more potential is worse than having less. :banghead:

 

[BullfrogKen]

It just might be possible that my experience, training and proficiency far exceed yours.

I doubt it.


OK champ, since you're wryly asserting you might have been trained on it, tell us who trained you that the immediate action drill on a semi-automatic was to pull the trigger again, then if it still failed go to plan B? Which school? Which department? Which instructor?


I know what John Farnam teaches. I know what Tom Givens at Rangemaster teaches. I know what Insights Training teaches, and Gunsite, and James Yeager and the Tactical Response crew teaches. And I could go on. . . . It all agrees with what Shawn D posted above us.

No reputable trainer teaches that the immediate action response to a click on a semi-auto is to pull the trigger again. Even if the gun is capable of it.



I've had enough training to know that the more I learn, the less I truly know. But this much I do know -

• If my gun didn't go bang, I need to get it back up if I intend to continue the fight with it.
• Pulling the trigger again is not a reliable way to get a semi-auto that just went click to go bang.
• We need a way that is both reliable and instinctive to get that gun back up. Anything that requires diagnosis isn't an option during a fight.
• So we need to train ourselves to do things that work which doesn't requiring figuring out what caused the stoppage. During the fight my mind is going to be pre-occupied with more pressing matters, so I have to anticipate that I won't have the mental resources available to perform a diagnosis.
• A Tap/Rack works to solve most any stoppage except double feeds or a parts breakage. So that's what we train ourselves to perform instinctively and without diagnosis when the gun goes click.

It takes very little time to perform a Tap/Rack. It can be reliably taught to a student in a day, to perform in under a second upon demand, not upon command. If my arm doesn't work, I need to find a way to make what I know has to get done happen. If I don't, I have to understand that the gun is not available to me until I do what's necessary to get it back up. So I better do something else, whatever my something else is.

Frankly, I can't see how anyone can possibly believe that having more potential is worse than having less.

Because in this game, less is more.


The more options we try to train ourselves to incorporate, the more clutter gets in the way. Hell, you can design an entire flow chart that takes into account every possible stoppage and all manner of responses to them if you want to. None of that matters.

The only gun handling skills that will work are those things that work effectively, and we can perform instinctively without a thoughtful, detached diagnosis.


I don't care about changing your view. You do what you want.

And tackstrp is free to ignore our suggestions and do whatever he wants.



Experiencing the consequences of our decisions serves as a good teachable moment. But in our study the consequences can be rather severe and irreversible. So do what you want, but understand that you are rejecting the lessons bought through the pain of blood and life by others.

 

[NoVAshooter]

Just got a Kahr MK9. Excellent and extremely accurate 9mm mouse gun. No double strike capability. But after putting 500 rounds of assorted ammo through it I doubt you need it.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The Magnum Research Micro Eagle also has double strike.

 

[wlewisiii]

because of age and physical disability in my left arm. it is difficult to rack the slide with out changing hands. otherwise i am limited to revolvers.

Ok, then a revolver is what you need. Perhaps not want but it's what you need.

Try a Ruger LCR as a good solution to the issue.

William

 

[alfack]

Beretta PX4 subcompact.

Not really mousey, though.

 

[Girodin]

The natural reaction to a "click" is to pull the trigger again.

Natural reactions are often not the best thing when it comes to fighting (with guns or otherwise). If they were we would not really need to train. Much of training to fight is training away your natural reaction and ingraining the proper reaction.

Again, I submit, this can be done just as fast or faster than the tap and rack.

Most likely but this contention ignores the more important point (and the one you have never really addressed), which is that pulling the trigger is unlikely to actually resolve the underlying problem. That is what makes it wasted time.

However my main point was that clearing a gun is very dificult to accomplish while being beaten, kicked, knifed or whatever. Clearing drills are OK to practice, but in reality, IMHO, they are not taught with real life violence included.

If you have time to clear a malfunction, if you have a free arm, if the situation warrants, then you can do all these things. If you are not able to free an arm, have no time, are already under assault, then all of this training is for naught. At that point your only recourse is to try the trigger again and/or use the gun as a club.

There are a few points in here I would like to address. First is that you talk about the way these things are taught but I get the impression that you do not know. Take for example your assertion that a tap rack bang takes two hands. It does not. I can very easily and rather quickly do it one handed (and I am not nearly as proficient with my weapon as I'd like to be or as many others are). No free arm required. These are basic gun handling skills that anyone who is going to carry a gun ought to know. I am going to question your training at this point if you think that a tap rack bang can only be accomplished with two hands. One hand malfunction drills are stuff of basic pistol classes.

As far as the difficulty of clearing malfunctions under stress. First, this is why you train until it is a reaction. Second, this is why you train under stress. Train force on force, etc. Third, I get the impression that you think a tap rack bang takes much longer than it does. I made no effort to disparage your ability. I asked how long you think it takes because of the manner in which you have talked about it simply taking too long. I'll ask again how long do you honestly believe it takes? Well trained shooters preform it almost instantly and I would argue faster than the untrained guy will even realize his gun didn't go off.

To say that a tap rack bang (or anything for that matter) will only work if one has time to do it is nothing more than to sate a truism. Yes if some one were right on top of me ready to stab me I might well use something else in my tool box. That is true of drawing/using my gun in the first place though. I can make all the arguments about using a gun in the first place that you made about clearing malfunctions.

It just might be possible that my experience, training and proficiency far exceed yours. But this is a circular arguement...you will not change my view, I will not change your view, and I usually stay out of fruitless posts.

Humility is a catalyst to learning. If you offered compelling reasons for what you are advocating you would stand a very good chance of changing my view. I have many times changed the way I do things when I've been shown a better method. My goal is not to change your view per se. I will kindly suggest that you reconsider whether you really know something in this respect that none of the major authorities in this field know. I am aware of no established trainers, and I could add names to Bullfrog's list, that advocate what you are preaching. Are they all wrong? Many of these people have been in firefights. Many have spent a great number of years using guns in bad situations, becoming as proficient as possible at doing so and teaching others.

Its very possible you know more than all of them. I suggest for your own benefit you give serious thought to whether you think that is really the case or not.


I'm not trying be a jerk but I too would be interested in hearing what training you have.

 

[Girodin]

OK champ, since you're wryly asserting you might have been trained on it, tell us who trained you that the immediate action drill on a semi-automatic was to pull the trigger again, then if it still failed go to plan B? Which school? Which department? Which instructor?

I really was hoping to read a response to the above.

 

[HorseSoldier]

A big +1 to things other people have already said. Repeatedly dropping the hammer on a round that didn't go bang the first time is a horrible, horrible habit to develop with any weapon that allows it. Odds are it's not going to go bang again, and in a high stress situation -- like a real defensive shooting -- having that behavior programmed into your mind is going to get you killed.

If racking the slide is a problem, a revolver is the right answer. Unfortunately, if you can't effectively perform immediate action drills with a semi-automatic pistol, you don't have any business carrying one for real world defensive use.

(Range guns and such are a different story, obviously.)

 

[BullfrogKen]

Unfortunately, if you can't effectively perform immediate action drills with a semi-automatic pistol, you don't have any business carrying one for real world defensive use.

Agreed. And that's what was missing in the counter-arguement.


I don't care if the gun can do it. It's not found in any part of an immediate action drill in any reputable school.


If we can't make that flavor of gun work, then find one we can.

 

[Girodin]

USP9,

I will take you silence as indication that you have no training (which makes your feigned outrage at earlier assertions that you did not kind of amusing).

 

[GLOOB]

All I can say about this is that I've successfully used a double strike trigger action many more times than I've had to clear a fouled pistol. If the man wants a double strike what does it matter to any of us?

WOW! So you've had MANY MORE light strikes in your experience than any other form of failure-to-fire, combined? That's amazing!!!

Personally, I've only experienced light strikes on some really old 9mm Mak, and the occasional .22 cartridge. And I've had exactly ZERO instances where a second (or third, or fourth) strike achieved anything. That makes your experience seem all the more amazing!!!!

The ONLY place where I can see this working is where the gun in question is able to fire significantly out of battery. Scenario: slide doesn't close all the way. The first hammer drop closes the slide all the way and the second shot fires the round. Obviously, this kind of gun in a serious caliber would be defective and dangerous. But it's also probably the only scenario where it would be logical to think a second strike would produce any different result from the first one.

An instance of a true light-strike will put a dent in the primer. Repeatedly striking this dented part of the primer will never in a million years fire the round, IME. Rechamber the same round in a different position, and BOOM, first pull.

I am firmly in the camp that a "click" with a semi-auto should immediately be followed with ANYTHING other than repeatedly pulling the trigger. (Unless you have years of experience with a particular gun where this is statistically the right thing to do (and for some reason you haven't sold it!?), and you're sure it's not an empty chamber or OOB!?)

At that point your only recourse is to try the trigger again and/or use the gun as a club.

If you can't rack the slide, then I supposed a second pull MIGHT be worth the effort. But boy, that second click is really going to give your attacker some confidence. It certainly might be better to employ the club attack while he is still shocked at his luck after the first click, rather than scratching a second lottery ticket to see if it goes boom. I mean, if it goes boom, you'll be surprised. If it goes click, you'll be disappointed. And then you'll be left wondering if/when you'll get a hang-fire. Meanwhile, your attacker is fighting with the intensity of someone who has a gun pointed at them, and the guy holding it is pulling the trigger! You need to stop distracting yourself and start defending yourself.

I would also suggest that a revolver might be a better option for someone who has full use of only one hand.

 

[Girodin]

All I can say about this is that I've successfully used a double strike trigger action many more times than I've had to clear a fouled pistol. If the man wants a double strike what does it matter to any of us?

Like I told him I would either be buying decent ammo, repairing my gun, or certainly not carrying it. You'll note that he did not respond to my question of whether this was a center fire cartridge and if so what gun and what ammo. I think it was a BS statement said to bolster his position rather than because it was true. Even if not I also get the impression that he didn't know how to properly clear malfunctions so saying that you get much more of A than B when you don't know how to and do not do B doesn't really mean much does it.

 

[usp9]

More likely he walked away from a thread that deteriorated into silly, useless posturing and blather, benefiting nobody and going nowhere. If you don't want a mousegun or back-up with doublestrike capability, then don't buy one. Some of us do... as simple as that. I've carried one for years and will continue to do so. Thanks for your interest in my life.

 

[danez71]

I find it odd that many of the same people that are against 2nd strike capability and promote that you must train to overcome your natural instinct to pull the trigger (again) will also promote having NO manual safety for the reason of that your natural instinct is to just pull the trigger and you may forget to flip the safety off.

For what its worth (not much really), I would say that in my life Ive had probably 10 FTF (center fire hand guns) and probably 6-7 of them did fire when re-loaded and fired again (.22lr excluded).

 

[MisterMike]

More likely he walked away from a thread that deteriorated into silly, useless posturing and blather, benefiting nobody and going nowhere.

I have to agree with this. The guy asks a question, hoping for a helpful response, and the self-appointed experts jump all over him. Not very High Road . . . .

Anyway, back to the original question. I really like the Taurus PT709. Though there were some early reports of malfunctions, it appears that those issues were fairly rare and I have not seen any recent problems. There's a lot to like about this little pistol, and it does have second strike capability.

 

[Jbabbler]

People mean well with the information provided but everyone has preferences and nobody has the authority to tell you what you should like. So, without getting involved in all of the unsolicited advice..... The Radom P64 and FEG PA-63 both have 2nd strike capability and are extremely accurate and reliable choices. I have one of each but prefer the P64. Either can be had in Excellent LNIB condition for <$200.

 

[gb6491]

I have a Kel Tec and per a phone call to Kel Tec if the trigger is not allowed to fully return will get light strikes on the primer. Something about the trigger block, which i did not understand. Requiring the round be racked out.

Forgetting "second strike capability" for a moment, as to the OP's statement above: this is an operator error, the so called "short stroke". The P32, P3AT and PF9 all partially reset the hammer when the action cycles. When you short stroke (not allowing the trigger to fully reset; I'm not sure it was ever possible to do so with the PF9), the hammer is not moved fully rearward and drops without sufficient force to fire the weapon. From here, the action must be cycled by hand enough to reset the hammer (this is independent of the trigger resetting) for the weapon to fire
If you have a P32 or a P3AT (possibly some early PF9s) that does that you need to return it to Kel-Tec to have an improved hammer block installed (you can also get the block sent to you and install it yourself). The new block prevents the hammer from dropping unless the trigger is allowed to fully reset. If you short stroke the trigger with the improved block installed, you can let it (the trigger) reset, then fire the gun. With either hammer block, once the hammer falls, it must be reset; through normal cycling of the action by a fired round or cycling by hand if unfired.
Regards,
Greg

 

[MisterMike]

If you have a P32 or a P3AT (possibly some early PF9s) that does that you need to return it to Kel-Tec to have an improved hammer block installed (you can also get the block sent to you and install it yourself). The new block prevents the hammer from dropping unless the trigger is allowed to fully reset. If you short stroke the trigger with the improved block installed, you can let it (the trigger) reset, then fire the gun. With either hammer block, once the hammer falls, it must be reset; through normal cycling of the action by a fired round or cycling by hand if unfired.

Great info!