lloveless
Member
Which is why I carry a revolver. If you're in the midst of an mano a mano confrontaiton it is more likely for a pistol to jam than a revolver, as you struggle for dominance.
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Looking for a mouse gun with double strike capability
- Thread starter tackstrp
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That is a complicated way of saying that you don't want to admit to having no training, or simply stating what gun/ ammo combo has so many light strikes. Those are two pretty simple questions the answers of which would actually contribute to ideas posited in this thread.
Gryffydd
Member
Let's think about it from this perspective for a second. The ONLY time a second trigger pull with a 2nd strike capable gun will help you is when the first strike to the primer didn't work. This is an exceedingly rare situation in a properly functioning gun. Now, take this exceedingly rare situation, and realize that in the event that it does happen, a 2nd strike will most likely produce the same result as the 1st strike. If there's something wrong enough with the primer for it to not go off when struck by a properly functioning gun, that will generally prevent it from going off when hit a second time.
So now we're dealing with a fraction of a fraction, and yet we're willing to delay the action that is most likely to get you up and going again in order to try something that's highly unlikely to help at all.
So now we're dealing with a fraction of a fraction, and yet we're willing to delay the action that is most likely to get you up and going again in order to try something that's highly unlikely to help at all.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
MisterMike said:
No Mike, tackstrp asked the question.
Many of us pointed out the answer he was searching for to solve his problem wasn't a good solution. And we backed it up with our own solid reasoning, supported by the consensus of the training community.
Someone comes along and challenges our positions, then directly attacks our backgrounds. Essentially we were told we didn't know what the hell we were talking about. And I was told privately that I was "a rookie with little to no life experience", and my personal training only consists of what I gathered off the internet.
You tell me which behavior is High Road?
If I told you I had problems driving my motorcycle in the ice and snow, and asked where I could find snowtires for it, wouldn't you point out that my motorcycle wasn't a good choice for winter driving? Or would you tell me where to go buy snowtires for my motorcycle?
tackstrp has difficulty working a semi-automatic. There is no small "mouse-sized" semi-automatic handgun in 9mm or 380 that won't have a strong recoil spring. He cannot work the gun. Directing the man where to buy a gun to use in a crisis situation that he cannot make work is not much different than telling me where to go buy snow tires for my motorcycle.
Maybe some of you are comfortable passing along that sort of advice. I am not.
Anyway, since I'm just a kid that doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, I'll leave you to go shopping for snowtires and be on my way.
Enjoy.
danez71
Member
(Edited)
With all do respect... I disagree.
His ONLY question was this:
"Does anyone have suggestions for brands names to look for?"
The only post I see that answers an un-asked question about his keltec is post #49.
The majority of the posts were telling him he's wrong for considering guns with 2nd strike (some with good data to support the POTENTIAL downsides)
He never stated nor asked "2nd strike better".
While I do value input for questions that I didnt even know to ask, I often times see threads like this that contain 30 posts of why the OP should do it their way and a couple posts that actually answer the question posted.
He still has the option to train for tap rack and boom.... but having a 2nd strike ability as a plan C is not a bad thing.
Rhetorical question....why not answer the OP question AND point out the downsides to relying on 2nd strike ability?
To me, the seems High Road.
Gun Geezer
Member
I like my Micro Eagle 380. It failed to feed on the 1st shot, but no problems in the next 100 rounds I have through it so far and this without cleaning, etc. I think that 1st shot I did not put the mag all the way in.
The mouse guns really do carry well!
The mouse guns really do carry well!
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
danez71 said:
Dane,
Quite early in the conversation I and others asked why this was such an important feature on a carry gun. Perhaps you missed it, so I'll draw your attention to his answer.
tackstrp said:
From my history on the board, I know a good many of the respondants won't take the time to read through the entire conversation before joining in. But this was post #16.
So he does not have that option. He can't perform a tap-rack without changing hands. So, pulling the trigger again is not plan C; it's the only response he's probably going to be physically able to perform in response to a click. I take people at their word, and if he says its too hard, I'll believe him.
Now knowing that, do you still feel that recommending a gun he can't overcome the recoil spring to work the slide on as a carry gun?
Perhaps you would. You don't know him.
So imagine it's your mother. Is your advice still the same?
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
See what I mean?
The gentleman has made his decision, yet responses still come in.
Folks want to have their opinion heard more than listen to what other's have to say. And I imagine before the night is through more "go get this one", and "I like this other one" responses will follow on.
tackstrp, even though it might not seem like it, I hope you feel like I actually engaged you in the conversation. Best of luck with the Sig!
The gentleman has made his decision, yet responses still come in.
Folks want to have their opinion heard more than listen to what other's have to say. And I imagine before the night is through more "go get this one", and "I like this other one" responses will follow on.
tackstrp, even though it might not seem like it, I hope you feel like I actually engaged you in the conversation. Best of luck with the Sig!
No they were explaining that second strike capabilities really didn't solve the underlying problem he was seeking to resolve with that capability. They then pointed to what a better option would be given the constraints that the OP detailed.
This isn't a matter of telling someone what to like. I have to agree with Ken it is not responsible to recommend someone carry a gun they are incapable of running properly. The OP is free to take the advice or not, but it is the right thing to do to explain the issues informing the OPs decision and help him make as informed a decision as possible.
danez71
Member
BullfrogKen
I guess I missed or forgot that part. No I dont. IMO, its revolver time for a carry gun. Thank you for pointing that part out.
Aside from his or similar challanges..... I dont think 2nd Strike capability is a bad option to have.
My Seecamp is an excellent pistol with double-strike capability, that fits the mousegun category, but why that capability is important is beyond my understanding. If a round does not fire, it is time for Plan B, and none of my B Plans include trying again with a dud round, if there are more rounds anywhere handy.
But, if the objective of this thread is second-strike capability, to the exclusion of alternatives, then the Seecamp is an answer to the question.
But, if the objective of this thread is second-strike capability, to the exclusion of alternatives, then the Seecamp is an answer to the question.
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There's a big difference between exercising a second-strike and re-chambering a cartridge.
I've had probably a dozen-odd light strikes with a FEG PA-63, all in one session. This was one light strike for every 10-12 rounds, maybe. I had lightened the mainspring by half a coil, and I was shooting old, surplus ammo. Second and third strikes never worked. I mixed up DA second strikes and manually cocked ones (in case the longer SA hammer drop might work). Zero success. Well, to be honest, I probably stopped trying a second-strike, at all, after the first 7-8 duds, rather than all 12 or so. So the bright side, IMO, is that I learned to stop wasting my time. (And I was just punching paper, not playing Rambo games.)
Every single one of these "duds" fired on the first try after being ejected, examined (single depression on each primer), set aside, and re-chambered.
For anyone whose first reaction to a failure-to-fire would be to pull the trigger - again... I'll just say there are several gun schools that would take your money in order to retrain you of this bad habit. Or you could cut a coil off your mainspring and unlearn it for yourself.
I guess another way of putting it is this: "Tap, rack, bang" drill isn't Rambo crap. It's common sense that anyone would figure out for themselves, if they had the opportunity to experience enough light strikes and/or other FTF's on their own.To recap: The "Tap, Rack, Bang" drill is for Rambo AND for regular people punching paper. The "click, click, click" drill is for people who haven't yet experienced HOW and WHY it's the definition of stupidity to repeat the same thing and expect a different result.
Of course, having a second-strike capability can't hurt you in a defensive situation... as long as you ignore it. +1 to Rexster.
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danez71
Member
There's a big difference between exercising a second-strike and re-chambering a cartridge.
I've had probably a dozen-odd light strikes with a FEG PA-63, all in one session. This was one light strike for every 10-12 rounds, maybe. I had lightened the mainspring by half a coil, and I was shooting old, surplus ammo. Second and third strikes never worked. I mixed up DA second strikes and manually cocked ones (in case the longer SA hammer drop might work). Zero success. Well, to be honest, I probably stopped trying a second-strike, at all, after the first 7-8 duds, rather than all 12 or so. So the bright side, IMO, is that I learned to stop wasting my time. (And I was just punching paper, not playing Rambo games.)
Every single one of these "duds" fired on the first try after being ejected, examined (single depression on each primer), set aside, and re-chambered.
For anyone whose first reaction to a failure-to-fire would be to pull the trigger - again... I'll just say there are several gun schools that would take your money in order to retrain you of this bad habit. Or you could cut a coil off your mainspring and unlearn it for yourself.
To recap: The "Tap, Rack, Bang" drill is for Rambo AND for regular people punching paper. The "click, click, click" drill is for people who haven't yet experienced HOW and WHY it's the definition of stupidity to repeat the same thing and expect a different result.
Of course, having a second-strike capability can't hurt you in a defensive situation... as long as you ignore it. +1 to Rexster.
Interesting. Although you lightened the main spring and that may have some relevence in the outcome.... I find your info interesting.
Serious question - What/why do you think there is a big difference in outcome between rechambering and 2nd strike? Seems the out come should be pretty similar but I'm probably missing somehting.
jackstinson
Member
How many "2nd strike" threads are on here anyway?
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I have a Mustang, the gun which the Sig is based on. It is a great little .380 IMO. That said, I find it an interesting choice in that it lacks the second strike capability (not that it is needed or offers any benefit) and still requires the ability to rack the slide in order to be able to operate it.
I would encourage you to learn one handed clearance drills. The can still be done fairly quickly with practice. Also run enough carry ammo through your new gun to assure it functions with that ammo. My mustang has been very reliable and is a good shooter but small autos can be finicky.
Best of luck with your new weapon let us know how you like it.
Ed Harris
Member
I have over 2000 rounds of 74-grain European hardball through my Beretta Tomcat Model 3032 INOX with no problems. The tip-up barrel gets around thr whole issue of having to rack the slide to load or clear the chamber. This little guy is as accurate at 10 meters as my Mauser HSc and it's alot handier.
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