looking for cheap CCW weapon

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

spartan20

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
36
Location
Atl,GA
I've finally decided to take the plunge, get my CCW license and start carrying.
I know I want an IWB holster if that matters. Looking to spend less than 4 bills if possible. Probably something used.
Nothing smaller than 9mm. I don't care about size or weight so much.
My preffered choice would be a 1911 of some kind, probably an RIA/Amscor or Norinco, because of the price, plus a .45 would be nice.
If there is anything else out there with a grip saftey I'll definatly take a look. I also really like the SFS safety system on my FN Hi Power, but my girlfriend is going to use that as her CCW weapon. Not a Glock or Sig, I want a saftey of some kind, just to play it safe, at least at first, as I get more comftorable that may change.

Is there anything out there that fits the bill besides a 1911? What are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance.l
 
Are revolvers an option? If so, you can get a lot of used K-frame Smiths in .38 Special or .357 Magnum for under $400.
Springfield Armory's XD line uses a grip safety... around $500 brand-new, you might be able to find cheaper ones used.
 
Recently I've been looking at CCW guns under $400 too. I spent a lot of time researching Taurus Millennium pros and 24/7s in 45ACP, (although I decided on a revolver) both look like great guns and get great reviews all over. Budsgunshop.com has them both for $3-400 new.
 
If this is primarily a ccw piece, why not get a snub. I used to carry a full size 1911 and it got old after a while. A nice j frame will slide in your pocket or just disappear in a belt holster under light clothing. For a carry piece they are hard to beat. They take practice and aren't always the most fun to shoot, but do a heck of a lot more good than a full size duty gun at home in the safe.
 
Expect to hear a lot of "how much is your life worth" type questions when you set such a limit on a concealed carry piece. I don't say this to be mean, just to stress that durability and reliability are extremely important considerations to make in a concealed carry weapon.

In regards to durability and reliability, the Norinco is a great choice. IMHO, it is a much better choice than the Rock Island. Norincos are made of very strong solid forged steel and have superb accuracy for the price. In fact, my Norinco is every bit as accurate as my higher dollar 1911s.

Also, if you are able to save up as little as an extra hundred dollars, a lot more options open up for you in used guns. For example, you may be able to into a Glock, a S&W M&P, a number of CZ models (40, 75B, 2075, SP01, etc) or, as Geronimo suggests, a Springfield XD.
 
$400 is plenty for a reliable piece. Though if you're set on a 1911, you should know what you're getting into. PM Old Fuff or 1911Tuner or one of the other 1911 experts, and ask about maintenance. I believe Norinco internals aren't quite up to spec, so you can expect to spend more money on new parts and gunsmithing to have them hand fit. You can also expect to be replacing a couple small parts about every 10,000 rounds, to keep the gun running at its best. 1911s aren't as high maintenance as many people will claim, as long as you've got forged, hand-fit internals, but they do require parts replacement more often than the modern designs.

If you get a Browning High Power, be aware that they are one of the shortest lifespan handguns on the market. A 9mm BHP will usually exhibit frame cracking around 35,000 rounds, though they'll occasionally last longer. .40 S&W ones, I don't know. But given that 9mm Glocks last about 150,000 rounds before needing an upper replacement, while .40 cal ones only last 20,000 to 40,000, I wouldn't be optimistic about a .40 BHP's lifespan.

Of course, 35,000 rounds is more than most people will ever fire in their lifetime. But it could be an issue if you plan to shoot a lot.
 
I don't say this to be mean, just to stress that durability and reliability are extremely important considerations to make in a concealed carry weapon
Click to expand...

IMHO in a carry gun this is over rated. It must reliably fire all the ammo you plan to carry, beyond that only really matters at the range or in zombie fighting fantasies.

The first rule of a gun fight is "HAVE A GUN". The compromises needed to make a powerful gun that is light and compact so its easy to have it on you, means durability will be reduced and reliability suffers as the gun gets dirty. Springs may need to be replaced fairly often.

If you are on a budget and can really carry it, the RIA should serve you well both at the range and on your person. My oldest RIA has over 11,000 rounds thru it and routinely goes a couple of thousand rounds between take downs for cleaning.

If you need some thing small and light in you under $400 price range, look at the Kahr CW9 or CW40. Good for a few hundreds of rounds before cleaning is needed, but may require some "break-in" to loosen it up enough to be reliable. Unfortunately a fair number have problems initially and need to go back. My CW9 was one, but its been fine since its return.

Taurus has several choices in your price range that are smaller than the RIA but larger than the Kahr.

Depends on your lifestyle, but I couldn't conceal any of the good leather holsters even without the gun in it!

I clean my carry guns after every outing, my range guns generally just get wiped down and put away until I've had a problem the last outing.

--wally.
 
For reliability & convenience a Glock 26 or S&W 642/442 would be between $400 & $500 each
 
Curmudgeon Checking In

I bet a Coke he says what he normally does...

spartan20,

How would you like to tick off a lot of folks and save both money and headaches at the same time?
Figured you would.
Whelp. You are in luck! I got my PhD in Ticking Folks Off at age 3.
I fast tracked a bit, and gave up any chance of Sainthood, still this Degree of Ticking Folks Off has come in handy all my life, and being honest - lots of fun and more fun to come.

Don't buy a gun - yet.

Invest in the Software not Hardware.

Go attend the class first, and get the noggin' edjumacted.

Gun fit to you is critical, so actually handle and shoot a variety of guns to see what fits you.
It does not matter whatever anyone has, or chooses, the reality is, none of these folks are going to be at your gunfight.

So go attend the class, with an open mind, and willing attitude.
If there are guns to try, pay attention to what Instructors have to share about the pros and cons.

I would pay attention to seasoned folks and latch onto them for quality instructions on gun fit, and assisting you in trying various guns - even if this means having to go to a range and rent some.

Some folks in previous replies, have hit on what I suggest.
Like Revolvers.
If a revolver fits you, and you do best with the Higgenbotham drill, then...
Well...Revolvers are not dependent on ammunition to run, they allow a variety of ammunition to be used, and while one would most likely buy a Speedloader, or Strip, one does not "have to" and them magazines can get a bit pricey.

$400 bucks, a good used police trade in Model 10, and money left to get whatever holster, you tried and found to fit you, the belt, some ammunition, and then even perhaps a speed loader, Speed Strips.

Revolver is going to work, whether you have a speed loader , speed strip or not.

Nothing wrong with a Semi, and Like 1911s, still the gun has to run, and the magazines are a part of what makes any Semi Auto run.
Being New to CCW, all sorts of new Life Changes are going to take place and you do not need the hassles and big question marks, "is my gun going to run"
Too many folks have bought guns that did NOT fit them, then had to take a loss getting one that did.
Or they got caught up in Equipment [Hardware]

Just ask how many folks have a drawer full of holsters that did not work.
$20 nylon to $200 real nice and that is a lot of money alone, that could have gone toward lessons , ammo and range time.

Ammo: I like 45ACP, still the suggestion is 200 rounds through a gun of carry loads, including the carry magazines.
Money adding up right there.
Magazines, well let us say these are $20 each, easy to get $80 tied up in mags.

If I have seen it once, I have see it - seriously- at least a thousand times over the years, folks get all caught up with the gun, holster, accessories and you name it.
I've seen folks that spent money, and did not have the money to take a class, or send in the fees to get the License/Permit.

9mm and 38spl are less monies to shoot. With the price of ammo, folks are concerned about ammo to carry and to practice with.

Dedicated 38spl revolver is going to shoot 158 gr POA/POI, over 90% of the time , especially Police trade ins and older guns, as they were designed and set up to do so.
Just shoot to double check, get used to these Carry loads and good to go...unlike 200 rounds plus to see if a slide gun runs, and with mags, and if not how much to fix so it will.

Reloading will save money, especially with .38spl target loads, and 9mm target loads, heck CCI Aluminum Blazers allow one to take lessons and do quality practice.

Software not Hardware.

The way I was raised and was born in the mid 50's, and the way I/we do new folks, and did the CCW when I assisted-
Lots of guns for folks to shoot, and various ammo, grips/stocks, holsters, and we did the Higgenbotham Drill.

The paper don't lie, it will tell a person what they shoot best.

Most everyone shoots a BHP well, so some saved up, and added to that $400 budget.
Some on tight budgets, accepted the fact the Model 10 , the other one most folks shoot well, was best for them at that time.
Later on, money saved up, get that BHP, or 1911.

4 guns fit 90% of all hands IME/IMO
1911, BHP, K frame and Colt D frame.

Similar guns like Smith 3913, another great gun in 9mm that can be found used. We used to get these as Police trade ins, with spare mags and holsters that fit folks.
Ladies run these down to a shoe shop, and that fellow altered the holsters to fit the ladies better.

We had six exact Model 10s, except each had a different grip/stock.
Not to mention other stocks, and other guns folks brought out.
Same gun, and folks would shoot and find the stock, that fit them from the get go.
Saved some money right there for some.
Ask how many folks have a bunch of extra stocks, along with extra holsters and whatever they bought and did not work.


$400 bucks.

For us the bone stock Springfield is running out of the box. Sells for about $458 , or so dollars.
GI looking and the factory mags are 7 rd with the dimpled follower.
Now these guns run, still some want to replace internals, and the mspg .

Point being, set the budget, and if it is best to go over to get quality, then that is a personal matter, still the bottom line is - what are you getting for monies spent.

You don't want someone elses problems, especially if they monkey-ed with a 1911 .

Software Not Hardware.

Nobody is going to be at your gunfight but you - Awerbuck
Get what you want, listen to whom you want, just remember not even I am going to be at your gunfight.

Software Not Hardware.

Again, lost count over the years and years, but someone comes in with a gun, or daddy, husband , BF "said" they had to have a certain gun and got them one for a CCW class, and the person, men and women hated that gun, it did not fit them, and it was NOT the gun for them.

We had 8 folks show up with Glocks folks "Said" they had to have, or they read "this is THE gun".
About half was .40 cal.
Nobody liked .40cal, not even the LEO that had carry the thing and used our range.

8 folks got rid of Glocks - that day. Seems we had 18 folks and the other "gotta haves" were Sigs and the folks hated the DA/SA, and the one HK , the fellow lost confidence in, as we had to knock cases out of the chamber.
WE even cleaned the thing, just a fluke, still he lost confidence.

Don't buy until you try...please.
 
At my CC class, the instructor brought a variety of weapons, and let people shoot them, both pistols and revolvers. In fact, him letting me shoot his Ed Brown 1911 is what got me buying 1911's now. I can't stop. Can't get enough.
 
Norinco Steel Quality

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=145099

Here is what an engineer had to say when he compared a Norinco 1911 to a Colt 1911:

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.
Click to expand...

As for the rest of the Nork, it is my understanding that it is completely made to mil spec standards. I haven't had to replace anything in mine but I have read that anything that will drop into a Colt 1911 will drop right into a Nork. Of course, a minor amount of fitting may be required, but this is due to the minor machining differences of the individual gun not the gun being out-of-spec. Besides, minor fitting is often to be expected with a parts swap on any model 1911, even a Colt.
 
A Kel-Tec PF-9 is fairly inexpensive, small, and in 9mm. Try centerfire systems for RIA 1911s.

You could get a Makarov and holster for well under $400. Probably under $300 if you shop around. Great gun, but "under 9mm".
 
Lets see.....

Cheap, and size and weight don't matter.

That sounds like an ad campaign for Hi-point.
 
+1 on the taurus line

I'd also look at the bersa/firestorm line. their .380 runs for <$250 new but that's too small caliber for your requirements. I can't imagine the 9mm or .40 is above $400. great guns.
 
My goals when I got back into CCW (former LEO) were the same as yours. My ever humble opinion is that you can get quality,reliable and powerful guns for $400. My first purchase was a S&W 642 airweight.It is the best selling gun on the market for a reason. It's lightweight,compact,powerful and is likely to get carried because it is simply the right size.Add a $15 Mika round bottom pocket holster and you have the setup. My second purchase was a Rock Island Armory 1911A1. At $379 for a quality 1911 that actually works, it's a steal. The Rock is also available in "Tactical" for a little over $400 if you want the upgraded sights and beavertail safety. The 1911A1 is mil spec and built from quality materials.Their factory service is second to none.A real representation of what made the 1911 the legendary combat weapon that it truly is. Chuck.
 
Autos....Kel Tec...PF9

Revolvers....Rossi....M461 .357 magnum snubbie or a .38.

This is about as cheap as reliable, accurate firearms get IMHO. Oh, yeah, well, you could go with a Hi Point I guess, if you were desperate. LOL! I'll never be THAT desperate, especially for a carry gun.

In the 350 dollar range you can get a good Taurus or you can even get a M642 Smith and Wesson. Just depends on how cheap is cheap by your definition. The KT or the Rossi 38 will set you back about $250 plus or minus. I saw the Rossi 461 at Academy the other day for 320. For that price, you're getting into Smith 642 territory, a better quality gun (well, some don't like the lock), but the Rossi is a .357 and it's a reliable, accurate revolver that will serve well.

All JMHO of course. I have Rossi, Taurus, Kel Tec, Smith and Wesson, and Ruger firearms in my collection. What gets carried most is my Kel Tec P11, my Taurus M85UL, and lately my Ruger SP101 in thunderwear. I can carry these without resorting to IWB which is a hassle for me for daily, though I can wear IWB on trips okay. My Ruger autos are bulky and require IWB carry in a Sparks Summer Special. Your mode of carry will also determine your gun to an extent. I'd advise NOT getting any 1911 sized gun until you get something more compact that you know will be with you every day. 1911s, Ruger P guns, service size guns are once in a great while guns on my hip. Daily, I'll carry something a lot smaller out of necessity.
 
+1 for the PF-9 from Kel Tec. Also check out their P-11. I paid about $250. I have the P-11 and I carry it 50:1 over my Springfield XD-40 Service Model. It's 100% reliable and accurate enough for CCW.

I also picked up a beautiful 4" Ruger Service Six in .357 for $235. I consider it a deal though, and most I see are ~$300 give or take. The 4" is perhaps a ted too long for IWB, but you can also look at GP100 and SP101.

Smith and Wesson also has a hammerless .357 steel frame revolver (my buddy has one). I think the barrel is 2.5" to 3" or thereabout. Looks like a Model 60, but hammerless like a 442.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

G
  • Locked
Help Finding Stylish CCW Purses??
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
Langenator
L
1911 guy
  • Locked
Pops is getting his CCW.
Replies
19
Views
600
1911 guy
1911 guy
H
  • Locked
CCW planning phase
Replies
16
Views
819
peacemaker45
peacemaker45
John Joseph
  • Locked
CCW thoughts
2 3 4
Replies
99
Views
6K
dickydalton
dickydalton
S
  • Locked
What's Your Real CCW?/Mr. Colion Noir
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Replies
193
Views
14K
PedalBiker
P
Back
Top