looks like sig will be building the next army rifle

[Megawatt maker]

Remember this is a contract for XM designated (experimental) weapon (XM5 for the rifle XM250 for the belt fed). Sig won the design contest but this is still far FAR from a fielded system. This contract is for a number of experimentally designated rifles and machineguns for the Army to do more in-depth and extensive testing. Some of this testing later in the program could include limited actual field use but it will still not be a fielded system. These rifle could languish in this status for years or longer. It might be accepted as designed if the testing goes exceptionally well and it might get kicked back to Sig to fix things if it goes good but they find deficiencies. And as is more often the case the Army will simply play with them for awhile and then drop the program completely.

yep., bout how I see it too. Again, the old quote "You can sell the government anything"...

Another little story...off topic and I apologize for this..its a once and done...
Back in 2018 I took the family on a tour of Cape Canaveral. We visited the Saturn 5 center. After seeing and hearing the tour guides trump up and promote their shiny new fanatic Space launch system and how it will do this that and the other thing....I ask a dude with an engineering dept something or other badge on, nASA employee no doubt,, who was walking around the Sat V center, why we, the tax payers, where spending so much money and effort to reinvent the wheel in the form if the SLS, which dispite claims otherwise, WILL NOT have near the thrust of the final version of the Sat V rocket...and wouldn't it just be better to break out the plans for it (on display in a room in the center) and put it back into production...since it had a perfect operational record?

His response...."Yep, I agree. Lots of us here in NASA agree too, but the bureaucracy must be fed!"....

That little statement summed up ALL government spending for me.

This new rifle, round, SAW...is just more of this....a waste.

 

[David Hoback]

Just wait until one let’s go. Which it will! To most people it’s just a number. 50BMG has a 60kPSI MAX pressure, which is SUPER HIGH! This is 20K north of that? Things are GOING to happen. (Murphey’s Law my friends.) I’ve seen people seriously injured with under 40,000psi pressures. 80,000 is seriously dangerous. I want nothing to do with it.

It just seems too great a number for what the cartridge is producing a .277”, 135gr. projectile traveling a little over 3000fps isn’t all that impressive. My .264” 143gr., at 2900fps in my 260Rem, and at Much Lower pressure, is much more desirable. It will have greater range and penetration.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

I don't look for the military to change from the M4 and the 5.56 cartridge for general use anytime soon. If I understand correctly this meant to be issued in limited numbers for some SF units or as a designated marksman rifle in others. Some M14's were pulled out of mothballs and upgraded to fill this role a few years ago.

If by few you mean 20.

 

[Jim Watson]

It just seems too great a number for what the cartridge is producing a .277”, 135gr. projectile traveling a little over 3000fps isn’t all that impressive.

The high pressure is to get 3000 fps from a 16" barrel. (Plus silencer, all the pictures I have seen showed the weapons with silencers fitted.)

The whole thing reminds me of the Swedish system of about 80 years ago.
The standard infantry round was the delightful 6.5x55 in rifles and LMGs.
The HMG was a very stout 8x62, so the ammo humpers in the weapons squad got 8x62 rifles with muzzle brakes. Apparently they were intended to be able to reload their rifles off the tails of machine gun belts.

 

[Nature Boy]

I remain confidently on the "this won't happen" side of the ledger.

 

[twarr1]

It’ll never gain wide issue. Sig and TV will fatten up on gov money then bring out the next ‘newest thing’

 

[mcb]

It’ll never gain wide issue. Sig and TV will fatten up on gov money then bring out the ‘newest thing’

I really hope True Velocity makes it, independent of this NGSW program. I think their polymer cartridge brings some neat things to the game.

 

[twarr1]

True Velocity is offering the Collectors Edition right now in 308.
https://tvammostore.com/product/true-velocity-308-win-collectors-edition-copy/
It’s a hard pass for me.

 

[mcb]

True Velocity is offering the Collectors Edition right now in 308.
https://tvammostore.com/product/true-velocity-308-win-collectors-edition-copy/
It’s a hard pass for me.

I don't actually own a 308 Win and I don't want a collectors item I want to buy a case or two of an M193 (556 NATO) replica or some 300 BO subsonic to be used.

 

[twarr1]

$7 per round

True Velocity is offering the Collectors Edition right now in 308.
https://tvammostore.com/product/true-velocity-308-win-collectors-edition-copy/
It’s a hard pass for me.

 

[BreechFace]

I believe that this is for a squad weapon. The current SAW works on some things, but is poor on others. Many years ago when my team needed more firepower I carried the M-60 "Pig", and my experience is that the larger cartridge did things that the 556 did not. I believe that we need a squad weapon with more punch than the standard rifle.

I could see this as a potential for the M240B but replacing the 5.56 in both the m4, m16 and m249? Not going to happen. I could see this getting some play as a DMR roll or as said before use in the M240B roll, but other than that this seems like Sig blowing smoke towards some check writers to see if they can get them to bite.

Even with the polymer cartridge a war fighter is giving up a lot of cartridges per loadout (I just picked an arbitrary 10kg or under loadout to work with the weights I was researching in grams). I just put together a quick spreadsheet comparing 5.56 vs. 7.62 NATO vs. 6.8x51 Poly.

View media item 4452
The magazine weights for the 7.62 and 6.8 seem high to me but was going off what I was seeing.

I remain confidently on the "this won't happen" side of the ledger.

Agreed.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

The DoD has had a attraction to 6MM for decades and I think this really is the ticket for them to change the current service rifle.
If the do make mass adoption, i see them cheapening it out in some areas. Or maybe it already is cheap enough to produce (just civilian versions of these rifles ask for such premium prices)

 

[mshootnit]

and by far the best value for this type of rifle right now is the plain old home built ar15.

 

[mshootnit]

I can't fault the military for wanting a cartridge with more reach and punch than the 5.56, but I've been surprised that they went as large as .277/6.8mm. I figured 6.3mm or 6.5mm would be the top end practical size, unless they don't really care about accurate select-fire. Based on the specs I found online, they're claiming 135gr bullet at 3000+fps. That's approximately 270 Win ballistics -- proven long-range performance, but it's rather more powerful than the typical assault rifle cartridge.

While developing the 6.8 SPC they tested several calibers, and found 6.8 to be ideal.

 

[Skylerbone]

Army Chooses New Rifle for Combat Troops

Army Picks Its Replacement for the M4 and SAW

"The service will also switch from 5.56mm ammo to 6.8mm, after a search for rounds better built to penetrate body armor."

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the 5.56 lovers begin!

35W

Its only meant to replace a very limited number of rifles and will not be standard issue because soldiers already have enough weight to hump around. And in the words of Bob Villa; “it’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools”. Idk if he’s ever said that but it’s fun

 

[Hikingman]

A long list of published specs would be great. I've clicked on links and seen nothing describing parts, twist, or manufacturing specifics. Maybe, later.

 

[d2wing]

Hold on. This is NOT replacing the 5.56. This is a new round about the size of a .308 and is not for rifles but for squad weapons replacing the .308 and the 5.56 in those type weapons. I think it remains to be seen if this new round replaces the 5.56 in rifles. I was there when they switched from 7.62 to 5.56 in rifles. But the M-60's still used 7.62.

 

[David Hoback]

Of course there are going to be those 100% on board with this. Because: “De like da CHINY new toys meng!” Same people who have purchased the newest IPhone every new release… without fail…whether they needed a new phone or not. Or those who buy a new car every couple years. They also tend to believe in ridiculous concepts like “Knock Down Power”, or that CHF AR15 barrels are some new invention that somehow magically last so much longer and give far better accuracy. LOL!

It’s all good. Makes no never-jeebles to me. Smellin’ what I’m steppin’ in? They can have ‘em. I’ll stick with my bad butt AR’s in 223. And my 260Rem that will STILL reach out and touch a fool at greater distance than the Sig Furry.. I mean Fury.

 

[David Hoback]

Hold on. This is NOT replacing the 5.56. This is a new round about the size of a .308 and is not for rifles but for squad weapons replacing the .308 and the 5.56 in those type weapons. I think it remains to be seen if this new round replaces the 5.56 in rifles. I was there when they switched from 7.62 to 5.56 in rifles. But the M-60's still used 7.62.

They built two different rifles. One is a SAW type belt fed, the other is a Mag fed infantry battle rifle. Same caliber.

 

[35 Whelen]

Remember this is a contract for XM designated (experimental) weapon (XM5 for the rifle XM250 for the belt fed). Sig won the design contest but this is still far FAR from a fielded system. This contract is for a number of experimentally designated rifles and machineguns for the Army to do more in-depth and extensive testing. Some of this testing later in the program could include limited actual field use but it will still not be a fielded system. These rifle could languish in this status for years or longer. It might be accepted as designed if the testing goes exceptionally well and it might get kicked back to Sig to fix things if it goes good but they find deficiencies. And as is more often the case the Army will simply play with them for awhile and then drop the program completely.

Hold on. This is NOT replacing the 5.56. This is a new round about the size of a .308 and is not for rifles but for squad weapons replacing the .308 and the 5.56 in those type weapons. I think it remains to be seen if this new round replaces the 5.56 in rifles. I was there when they switched from 7.62 to 5.56 in rifles. But the M-60's still used 7.62.

According to both of the articles in the links, it's a 10 year, 20.4 million dollar contract that was awarded after "a 27 month prototyping and evaluation period". Sounds like the testing is over. Defense News states that they should be in the hands the first units by or before October 2023.

Some interesting content from the article-

Once the weapons have gone through a series of next steps, officials said, the Army will drop the “X” designator, said Col. Scott Madore, project manager for soldier lethality.

The Army chose the 6.8 mm round following the publication of the 2017 Small Arms Ammunition Configuration Study. The study was driven in part by advances in adversary body armor and field reports of underperformance and lackluster lethality for the 5.56 mm round at distances beyond 300 meters in Afghanistan gun battles.

In Army research, officials said, the 6.8 mm round outperforms the 5.56 mm on distance, accuracy and energy for lethal effects on target. That measure counts for lethal effects on either protected or unprotected targets.

35W

 

[mcb]

According to both of the articles in the links, it's a 10 year, 20.4 million dollar contract that was awarded after "a 27 month prototyping and evaluation period". Sounds like the testing is over. Defense News states that they should be in the hands the first units by or before October 2023.

Some interesting content from the article-

Once the weapons have gone through a series of next steps, officials said, the Army will drop the “X” designator, said Col. Scott Madore, project manager for soldier lethality.

The Army chose the 6.8 mm round following the publication of the 2017 Small Arms Ammunition Configuration Study. The study was driven in part by advances in adversary body armor and field reports of underperformance and lackluster lethality for the 5.56 mm round at distances beyond 300 meters in Afghanistan gun battles.

In Army research, officials said, the 6.8 mm round outperforms the 5.56 mm on distance, accuracy and energy for lethal effects on target. That measure counts for lethal effects on either protected or unprotected targets.

35W

Until they drop the X designation the XM5/XM250's life or death is still very much up in the air. The Army can kick this project back for more development or drop it all together at any point from now until the X designation is dropped. The contract means the Army likes what they see but until its really put through real world testing it will still wear the X designation. $20.4 million contract for small arms is small time. That is probably less that 1000 of each the XM5 and XM250 and ammo to support the testing. That is just enough to do really world testing. When they drop a contract to acquire 10,000+ of each and they drop then X designation they we will have a new service rifle/cartridge and not until then.

 

[C-grunt]

According to both of the articles in the links, it's a 10 year, 20.4 million dollar contract that was awarded after "a 27 month prototyping and evaluation period". Sounds like the testing is over. Defense News states that they should be in the hands the first units by or before October 2023.

Some interesting content from the article-

Once the weapons have gone through a series of next steps, officials said, the Army will drop the “X” designator, said Col. Scott Madore, project manager for soldier lethality.

The Army chose the 6.8 mm round following the publication of the 2017 Small Arms Ammunition Configuration Study. The study was driven in part by advances in adversary body armor and field reports of underperformance and lackluster lethality for the 5.56 mm round at distances beyond 300 meters in Afghanistan gun battles.

In Army research, officials said, the 6.8 mm round outperforms the 5.56 mm on distance, accuracy and energy for lethal effects on target. That measure counts for lethal effects on either protected or unprotected targets.

35W

Yeah no. Sig won the contract to become the XM5 and XM250. That does not mean they have, or will be, fully adopted as a standard weapon system. Now the guns go to field trials.

A few notable entries that have made it this far during GWOT:

The 5.56 SCAR Mk16
The 6.8 SPC
The XM25 grenade launcher

All those were field tested and even used in combat. Notice how none of those are currently being used...

 

[35 Whelen]

Until they drop the X designation the XM5/XM250's life or death is still very much up in the air. The Army can kick this project back for more development or drop it all together at any point from now until the X designation is dropped. The contract means the Army likes what they see but until its really put through real world testing it will still wear the X designation. $20.4 million contract for small arms is small time. That is probably less that 1000 of each the XM5 and XM250 and ammo to support the testing. That is just enough to do really world testing. When they drop a contract to acquire 10,000+ of each and they drop then X designation they we will have a new service rifle/cartridge and not until then.

Yeah no. Sig won the contract to become the XM5 and XM250. That does not mean they have, or will be, fully adopted as a standard weapon system. Now the guns go to field trials.

A few notable entries that have made it this far during GWOT:

The 5.56 SCAR Mk16
The 6.8 SPC
The XM25 grenade launcher

All those were field tested and even used in combat. Notice how none of those are currently being used...

Interesting. I've read a half dozen articles regarding the XM5 and the XM250 and they all state that these two will replace the M4 and the M249, respectively.

Where did you guys read otherwise?

35W

 

[ECVMatt]

I don't get this one at all. The Army is buying rifles that are probably too big and heavy for the average soldier to carry in a caliber that is too powerful for them to shoot accurately. Did we not learn anything from the M-14?

I am all for upgrading the M4 both in design and caliber, but this just seems ridiculous.

 

[C-grunt]

Interesting. I've read a half dozen articles regarding the XM5 and the XM250 and they all state that these two will replace the M4 and the M249, respectively.

Where did you guys read otherwise?

35W

Most of those articles are written by people that are A) just regurgitating the Sig promo material and B) don't understand how military weapons procurement goes.

https://www.army.mil/article/255827/army_awards_next_generation_squad_weapon_contract

To quote the first sentence of the third paragraph.

"The value of the initial delivery order on the contract is $20.4 million for weapons and ammunition that will undergo testing."