Low Cost HD rifle

[GunTech]

Greetings all,

I am looking for suggestions on a low cost HD rifle for a friend on a very tight budget. A couple of provisos.

1. It has to be cheap. As in Under $400 - and under $300 is more realistic.

2. It has to be rugged and reliable.

3. It must be semi-auto and in a common cartridge.

4. It must be low recoil. The user is semi-disabled and cannot handle any substantial recoil.

Right now I am looking at either an SKS (Russian) or a Saiga 223, but I have personally owned neither of these. I can pick up a nice Russian SKS right here in town for $325. I hear good things about the Saiga, and see them on Gunbroker for around $100 more ($425) - not including transfer fees and shipping.

What are the boards thought? Other options I am not considering but should?

My experience is all with AKs, ARs, M1as, etc. I have never owned an SKS or had an AK that shot particularly well (not counting my Galil or Valmet). This will be a major investment for my friend and we need to get it right.

Please do not suggest an AR or similar higher cost rifle. $400 is the absolute upper limit on cost.

 

[armoredman]

SKS is the best idea.

 

[Hanzo581]

Can it be a pistol caliber carbine? With your requirements I think it would be a good match.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_151/products_id/15213

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=116453

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

SKS if the $100.00 really makes a difference.

WASR-10 AK, for $400-ish, if not.

.223 Ak's, including Saiga's are not that reliable. Additional mags are not cheap. - I'd forget this option.

The Kel-tec is not a bad idea if recoil is an issue.

 

[harmon rabb]

www.classicarms.us has saigas for $340.

 

[Jonny V]

Maybe look around for a Marlin Camp 9. I have one, and it's very reliable. 9mm ammo is the cheapest on the market except for 22lr, and out of the carbine barrel, it's more like a 357 than a 9mm. It takes SW 5900 series mags, (MecGars, etc). The recoil is no worse than a 22lr, and you can shoot REAL FAST with a camp 9. Something to think about anyway......

 

[oldbanjo]

SKS

 

[briansmithwins]

I'd go with the AK.

Lots easier to load (rock and lock vs fiddly stripper clip loading), more fire power, and simpler design.

BSW

 

[wnycollector]

A used Hipoint in 9mm or .40 should fit the bill nicely (~$200). I have a few friends that have them and they all love theirs.

 

[zhyla]

They aren't nearly as cool but Chinese SKS's are perfectly serviceable. I think they are pricing below $300. I prefer an AK (lighter, detachable mags, etc) but there's really nothing wrong with an SKS. With a little practice he'll find loading it is quite simple.

I don't know what stripper clips cost these days... $.10? Cost of clips or mags is a good thing to consider. You don't want to steer him into a gun that takes $30 magazines.

 

[GunTech]

Thanks for the replies. Looking for a rifle caliber. 223 or 7.62x39.

 

[Dionysusigma]

You put Kevlar wallpaper up, didn't you?

Another vote for a Hi-Point.

1. It has to be cheap. As in Under $400 - and under $300 is more realistic.

Look here: http://www.woodburyoutfitters.com/H...Ghostring-and-Peep-Adj-Sights-995TS-P602.aspx

2. It has to be rugged and reliable.

Hi-point carbines are renowned for their simple, robust design.

3. It must be semi-auto and in a common cartridge.

Check, and they come in 9mm, .40, and .45 (though the .45 model costs a bit more)

4. It must be low recoil. The user is semi-disabled and cannot handle any substantial recoil.

A pistol-caliber carbine is great for this. I have seen five-year-olds who handle the recoil of a PCC like a champ.

Keep in mind that the Hi-Point 995 and 4095 are easier to load and chamber a round than loading an SKS or working the bolt on a Saiga. Plus, even though the bullets are slower, they're heavier, have a larger cross-section, and run a bit cheaper than rifle ammo.

 

[Zerodefect]

As much as I hate to say it. That price point is too low for any decent defensive rifle, but a good defensive shotgun can be done.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/015813506632.html
Any used Mossberg 590A1 or Rem 800 should be a great weapon, and they are used and abused all over the US, should be easy to find a used one at a gun store.

 

[Girodin]

I like the idea of a saiga. First lets run through your criteria:

1. It has to be cheap. As in Under $400 - and under $300 is more realistic.

I see NIB saigas selling for $320-350

2. It has to be rugged and reliable.

It is an AK action. It is plenty rugged and reliable enough.

3. It must be semi-auto and in a common cartridge.

It is semi auto and available in .223 and 7.62x39 (as well as various others)

4. It must be low recoil. The user is semi-disabled and cannot handle any substantial recoil.

Both chamberings are what I would call low recoil. The .223 is basically just noise and blast but almost no recoil.

Lets consider draw backs: in stock form you will be limited to 10 round magazines. Of course it is no disadvantage over the SKS and I'd prefer the removable box mag to stripper clips (I'm very wary of removable mag SKSs). It is front heavy. Ergos on the saiga are not very good at all IMHO.

I like the saiga though because it can latter be upgraded as funds allow. Although that might never be something the owner is interested in at least it is an option. It would be easy to add a red dot and a flash light as well as achieve 922r compliance to run standard capacity magazines. Also converting it makes it much more useful but if this is the typical sit it in the corner and hope nothing bad happens HD rifle then converting may not matter as much.

Of course a Wasr 10 meets most of those same requirements for the same price plus it takes standard capacity and readily available (read inexpensive) surplus mags.

I'd rather have my (converted) saiga but another option you might look at is the Kel tec SU16. You may be able to find one in your price range and it is pretty light and takes AR mags.

If you decide to reconsider pistol calibers then both the kel tec Sub 2000 and the hi point 996 can be had for under $300. The are both IME reliable and durable guns. They are semi auto the have basically no felt recoil nor the blast that some shooters find to be just as objectionable. They are light compact and easy to wield, more so than an SKS, a saiga, or other AK. Both are semi auto. The kel tec can take glock mags. A 9mm with 33 rounds of quality 9mm ammo on tap is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Hanzo581]

Thanks for the replies. Looking for a rifle caliber. 223 or 7.62x39

Just out of curiosity, why?

 

[95cougar]

I know you said .223 or 7.62x39, but I would whole-heartedly second a Hi-Point carbine as it meets all of your selection criterion. I have a High-Point 995 carbine and while it is not easy on the eyes, it has the following pros: 1) it is compact; 2) it is affordable (new or used); 3) it shoots a common, relatively cheap caliber; 5) High-Point customer service is supposed to be top-notch (should the need arise); and, most importantly, 6) it is reliable.

Good luck with whatever you and your friend choose.

 

[Girodin]

As much as I hate to say it. That price point is too low for any decent defensive rifle, but a good defensive shotgun can be done.

I would say that an AK platform weapon makes a decent defensive rifle. It is a pretty proven design. It can be had in that price range. Thus I believe you are mistaken.

Oh and I would contend that a gun like the 995 05 Sub 2K makes a much better defensive weapon than a 12 gauge pump gun if a particular user can run them effectively and not run 12 gauge.

 

[briansmithwins]

Let's not kid ourselves, rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols, even if you fire them out of a pistol cal carbine.

I love my SBR Uzi but it's the last long gun I would grab if I needed one. I'd take it before any pistol if use was anticipated. BSW

 

[MaterDei]

Can't go wrong with the SKS. Meets all of your requirements and it's fun to shoot to boot.

 

[HOOSIER70]

I've read somewhere that Highpoint has a 45 ACP carbine coming out soon that should fit the bill

 

[kludge]

I consider the 7.62x39 to have "substantial" recoil for someone who is recoil-sensitive. If (s)he really is recoil sensitive, then the best thing is to have him/her try a few things to make the sure (s)he gets something (s)he won't hate.

How about a .30 Carbine? If that's out of the price range, then I would go PCC (pistol caliber carbine) in .40S&W, and start by looking at Kel-Tec... if that's still too much money, then Highpoint.

If a PCC is out, then Kel-Tec's SU-16 would come in at ~$450.

 

[Zerodefect]

I would say that an AK platform weapon makes a decent defensive rifle. It is a pretty proven design. It can be had in that price range. Thus I believe you are mistaken.

Oh and I would contend that a gun like the 995 05 Sub 2K makes a much better defensive weapon than a 12 gauge pump gun if a particular user can run them effectively and not run 12 gauge.

I sure hope so.

Every AK I've shot so far that was any good costed as much as a decent mid-grade AR. Ak's don't seem so cheap anymore.
That and I don't see the point of limiting yourself to painfully slow iron sights. Larue did have a nice method of mounting a mini reddot to the AK in place of the rear sight, not sure if thats still around, but if it is, it's definately worth looking into.

I use a rifle for home defense. But a shotgun is a must have in any quiver. The Mossy 590A1 is pretty easy to bolt an Eotech onto as well.

I think the $400 limit is a serious hurdle here.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

The user is semi-disabled and cannot handle any substantial recoil.

What is the disability? If the shooter has only one good arm, that is a significant factor when selecting a weapon.

You might want to look at a Draco AK pistol, or used Kel-tec PLR-16 if the shooter cannot shoulder a weapon, but you still want rifle caliber.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Another vote for a SKS

Back when they we just beginning to import them...and you could get them for around $100...Jeff Cooper said, "Samuel Colt's SAA might have made men equal, but the SKS made it affordable"...I think it was in an issue of Guns & Ammo

 

[Girodin]

I've read somewhere that Highpoint has a 45 ACP carbine coming out soon

Seems like I've been reading that for at least 3 years maybe longer.

Let's not kid ourselves, rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols, even if you fire them out of a pistol cal carbine.

No argument there. But pistol rounds on target have more effect than rifle rounds that miss or never get fired. Depending on the limitations in question that maybe worth considering.

You might want to look at a Draco AK pistol, or used Kel-tec PLR-16 if the shooter cannot shoulder a weapon, but you still want rifle caliber.

These are not the easiest to use type of firearm to shoot well in my experience with them. The PLR 16 is a bit easier because it is lighter, but still. I will also say it has an incredible amount of muzzle blast and is freaking LOUD.

Every AK I've shot so far that was any good costed as much as a decent mid-grade AR. Ak's don't seem so cheap anymore.

I don't know what your sample size is in shooting AKs and which ones you have experience with and what your criteria for decent is but I have seen and shot plenty of AKs including guns like Wasr 10s that ran under $400 and were perfectly adequate for home defense and then some. They were up to the task. Whether the person shooting them was is a different question. In my experience more expensive AKs offer mostly just a nicer fit and finish. When compared to the Wasr and the like they may offer more accuracy. Although my personal AK is a converted saiga that with out adding in extra goodies like RDS and lights etc cost less than $400 and will do anything those $800+ AKs will do.

That and I don't see the point of limiting yourself to painfully slow iron sights.

One reason might be you have a $400 budget. I take it, however, that your point is that the AK limits one to slow irons. While AK irons are likely up to the task of HD if the user is proficient with them I too would rather have a RDS. An AK by no means precludes that. Lets be honest though, while a red dot is IMO a better set up and faster irons are not some unacceptable and insurmountable handicap. Take a shot timer and go set up HD distance targets and see just how much slower they are.

Larue did have a nice method of mounting a mini reddot to the AK in place of the rear sight, not sure if thats still around, but if it is, it's definately worth looking into.

It turned out that the Iron dot, the product you are referring to, was actually not that nice of a way to do it. The mount was designed for a burris fast fire dot. Unfortunately, the mount blocked the sights light sensor and that caused issues with the visibility of the dot. You think irons are limiting try using a RDS with a dot you cannot see. (although at HD distances I have found that just using it like a big ghost ring tends to get lead on target. But is is an expensive and imprecise ghost ring)

I think it is safe to say that it is generally accepted today that the best set up is a micro aimpoint on an ultimak. The ultimak also allows an offset mount for a light. Other RDS can be used but the micro T1 is the best IMO. This is a better setup than the LaRue iron dot. The T1 is also a much better, albeit more expensive, sight.

I use a rifle for home defense. But a shotgun is a must have in any quiver.

Not if someone cannot wield it effectively. As I said before a gun someone can actually use is better than a gun that is superior on paper.

I think the $400 limit is a serious hurdle here.

I think it is a limitation that prevents them from getting the ideal set up or the best of the best in terms of gear. That said, I'm much more concerned that someone with so many limitations and such a tight budget will not be willing or able to put in the time effort and expense to get proficient with the weapon. There are plenty of people that can run a cheap AK and be much more effective with it than others are with a suppressed noveske with an aimpoint and what ever other goodies one wants to add (or whatever other weapon one deems to be the setup).