low end black rifle recommendations

[offthepaper]

Greyling22 speaks the truth

I have 2 Bargin Bin AR's from CMMG.
a 16" and a 20", both perform and look flawless. Granted mine are both range toys, but I have put thousands of rounds through both without a hiccup. Now, if it's "life dependant" buy the Colt.

If you go with the Bargin bins, I agree, use the other money for ammo, a better trigger, or a scope. I have no regrets about my BB's.

 

[Zerodefect]

If you keep coming back to the Colt when looking at AR's? Then look no further.

The Colt LE6920 is an excellent rifle.

Mine was a little over $1K, but still reasonable. 100% reliable. Good accuracy. Flat top. Magpul BAD lever fit well, and a KAC ambi safety dropped right in.

 

[nipprdog]

Look seriously at the Spikes Tactical ST-15. You get a Mil-Spec rifle with a chrome-lined chamber and chrome lined bore with a 1:7 twist 16 inch barrel for $799. This is probably the best option going in the AR-15 world right now in terms of what you get for your money.

Better yet, spend $10 more, and get the midlength version.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-midlength-le-carbine-p-443.html

 

[mc223]

To Those Who Have Reccomended Against a Brand

I do not believe that comments such as these are High Road.

We are the ambassadors to the shooting world.

If you do not own one of these, keep your internet learned opinion to yourself. If you do and have had a bad experiance. Work it with the Mfg.

kwelz
Quote:
Avoid Oly, Avoid DPMS.

tinygnat219

Stay away from Olympic Arms. You'll be regretting that choice.

Justin

Avoid Olympic.

 

[mc223]

On the other side of the subject. If you recommend a product because you have one and you like it, be considerate of the guy or gal who doesn't feel it meets their requirements.

Brand loyalty is a great thing only for the person whose brand isn't being called junk.

 

[Zerodefect]

I do not believe that comments such as these are High Road.

We are the ambassadors to the shooting world.

If you do not own one of these, keep your internet learned opinion to yourself. If you do and have had a bad experiance. Work it with the Mfg.

On the other hand.......

I've owned Oly and DPMS stuff. Many of my friends and family have as well.

I wished someone would have screamed at us:

"DON'T BUY OLY, DPMS, BUSHY, GARBAGE!!!!11!!!111!!"

Cause we wasted alot of time and money on substandard rifles/parts that ended up costing us more in the long run than proper rifles from proper companies that don't cut corners.

When you have your first 20 point lead ever in competition spoiled by a bolt or extractor failing in the final round. Well, your opinion would change as well.

So hopefully THR keeps recommending the good stuff, and condemmming the corner cutters. Just trying to save others the headaches and a little $.

Oly, DPMS, Bush, etc. etc. all have the opportunity to improve thier product. The simple, cheap, and correct ways to build an AR are well known and listed everywhere.

The reasons why they continue to skimp on the basics, should be a huge neon red flag of warning.

Ambassadors of the shooting world should watch out for each other. And not let substandard rifle companies leech off of our sport. It may often sound like we're bashing. And that's too bad.

Maybe we should speak softer.

But gun companies that care about thier product DO read forums. Maybe they need to see this.

 

[kwelz]

So telling people to avoid a brand is not High road? Umm. I don't think you understand the definition.

Please detail why these should be avoided. Then what qualifies you to advise the said avoidance.

I dont own either so dont go there.

I have documented my reasons many times before. In posts you have been involved with even. I have owned multiple DPMS rifles with problems. Problems that should have been caught at the factory. I also have owned Oly guns with problems and the problems are well documented.

In addition I used to be a wholesaler for firearms. We sold DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, RRA and a few others. We got more complaints on DPMS than any other brand. Guns Broken in shipping, Obvious problems when they unpackaged them. Stuff that even the most basic QC would have caught.

Like Zerodefect stated, I wish people would have said the same thing to me ages ago. It kills me to think of all the money I may as well have burned on sub par junk. The OP has stated that one of his purposes is possible HD. And that right there means he should look at a better quality weapon. Intended use drives what you buy.

 

[Art Eatman]

Isn't there a book out there, somewhere, along the lines of "How to disagree with somebody without making them mad"?

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. But getting all emotional in either offering a disagreement or receiving some disagreement

CHAPS MY BUTT!

I swear, Internet Providers oughta give out free samples of Calm Down.

So calm down. I wanna go read something besides complaints.

 

[mc223]

I see some evading of the request as I have seen before in the aforementioned other posts.

You say well documented. Where?

What about these multiple problems? What were they.

In addition I used to be a wholesaler for firearms. We sold DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, LMT, RRA and a few others. We got more complaints on DPMS than any other brand.

"We" would be a corporate structure? And "I" would be you? Did you work in a shop that had these repeated problems or was it your shop or what?

Were these problems reported to the responsible mfg or vendor and repaired or replaced?

Guns Broken in shipping, Obvious problems when they unpackaged them.

Were these issues properly relayed to the carrier in a timely fashion?



My point is very simply that I do not believe that good ambassadors to the shooting world should be so biased as to exclude any manufacturer from consideration. The people who come to the forums genuinely want the lowdown on what they have pictured in their mind as doing the job.
To misreport a product is not good for anyone. These issues must be taken up with the mfgs. Badmouthing on a forum serves no good purpose, either to the mfg or a potential buyer.

 

[hso]

Re: advice

I do not believe that comments such as these are High Road.

No, it all depends upon whether the advice is given in a civil manner. Whether that advice is based on extensive personal experience or extensive research it should be based on more than casual "gossip" if the poster doesn't want to be called on sloppy work. Be sure you have a basis for an opinion.

That said, there has been an explosion in AR accessories, parts and manufactures over the past decade and not all of them are of good quality or good design and helping members avoid the low quality and poorly designed products is a service, not a sin.

 

[kwelz]

See my replies in red.

I see some evading of the request as I have seen before in the aforementioned other posts.

You say well documented. Where?
M4carbine.net
A conversation with any reputable AR smith.
Armorers for PMCs that work with these daily.
Instructors that teach classes weekly.

You seem to want spreadsheets and exact numbers. Nobody has compiled those. But there is plenty of evidence out there.


What about these multiple problems? What were they.

Out of spec chambers, Broken FSB, canted FSB, badly staked bolts. The list goes on.


"We" would be a corporate structure? And "I" would be you? Did you work in a shop that had these repeated problems or was it your shop or what?

I am sorry my English isn't up to your standards. It was not a shop I owned. I was a wholesale agent focusing mainly on ARs and 1911s

Were these problems reported to the responsible mfg or vendor and repaired or replaced?

Yes, which does not excuse the high number of problems to begin with

Were these issues properly relayed to the carrier in a timely fashion?

It isn't the shippers fault when packages with no damage continuously arrive with broken stocks, etc.

My point is very simply that I do not believe that good ambassadors to the shooting world should be so biased as to exclude any manufacturer from consideration.

I think you have a different definition of "good ambassador" Yours seems to be that we should all hold hands and get along and not talk about the bad. But there is bad. It isn't Bias to say that some brands have more problems than others. I feel it is more important to tell the truth and give people facts.

The people who come to the forums genuinely want the lowdown on what they have pictured in their mind as doing the job.

I would think people coming to this forum would want the truth.

To misreport a product is not good for anyone. These issues must be taken up with the mfgs. Badmouthing on a forum serves no good purpose, either to the mfg or a potential buyer.

What is being Misreported? Just because you choose not to believe it doesn't make something not true.

Also you seem to think that because a company fixes all their problems that this makes it better. Most of these problems should never make it out of the factory.

 

[Zerodefect]

I

What about these multiple problems? What were they.


.

For me:
-extractor springs
-leaky gas blocks
-broken bolts
-extractor
-triggers failing and becoming "happier"
-M4 feed ramps fell off
-cracked bolt ear

But I've seen other problems in others weapons.
-crooked upper reciever or binding carrier
-crooked front sight
-missing M4 Feedramps. Must have fallen off in production.
-crooked drilled trigger pin hole (how is that even possible)
-carrier key loose and leaky
-bolt pin sheared

 

[mc223]

I am just going to exit this discussion and apologize to the Forum and staff.

I hope the OP make his choice based on FACT and not opinion.




One last little thing for Kwelz to help me understand. I am not going to quote you from a different but you did make a statement that fits with all of these types of threads.

It has to do with selling an Aimpoint and getting an ACOG that is not as good because YOU just LIKE it better.

Please respect others LIKES.



And Zero I am calling BS to your lists. I believe that your post is just a parroting of internet storys as is that of Kwelz.

 

[suzukisam]

M4 feed ramps fell off

how does a feed ramp fall off? isn't it machined into the barrel extension?

 

[69Rebel]

I wouldn't hesitate to build from an Oly stripped lower. I've put a couple together, one cast and one forged, and they worked perfectly. Mags drop free, pins line up, my Colt upper fit just fine.

 

[Zerodefect]

how does a feed ramp fall off? isn't it machined into the barrel extension?

Was joking about that part. LOlz.

I find it extremely odd that not all AR's have M4 ramps. They don't cost anything.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Was joking about that part. LOlz.

I find it extremely odd that not all AR's have M4 ramps. They don't cost anything.

M4 feed ramps were developed for full auto rifles to aid feeding. They are not necessary for semi auto AT15's. My AR's ran fine for twentyfive years with out them.

 

[groovemastergreg]

Guys and possibly, gals, I appreciate the input and the whole reason I did ask about these different guns was to hear any postitives or negatives. Being the internets, there are going to be those that have opinions not from personal experience but from internet lore. Not that any of those folks are opining here...

I truly appreciate all who gave opinions or information.

As to why I'm jumping to the Colt when I said low end, well, it is the low end Colt I'm looking at. I realize there is a price difference of $300 between the lowest priced and the Colt, but hey, that's why I posted this query.

Thanks again!

 

[Tirod]

M4 feed ramps were developed for - wait for it - M4's. The M16 has always had feed ramps, the M4 with carbine gas cycled so much faster it can literally knock the cartridge forward out of the mag and needed the deeper cuts into the magwell. Rifle length gas and buffers run slower with more inertia and don't bang the case forward as much.

Which is the point: DON'T BUY BRAND, BUY FEATURES. Two pages of BS over which is good or bad isn't the real issue. Specify the features you want, and the brands select themselves. Match the barrel and caliber to the job first, then the makers become readily apparent. Colt isn't in the 6.8SPC biz, so they fell out first thing on my build, I went ARP.

That's not recommending one over the other, it's simple product selection. Had I the choice over again, I would have bought a double minutes card and not given up the previous cell phone - which had an alarm that worked even when it was off. Specify the features you need, let the brand fans duke it out at the bar Saturday nite.

Barrel and caliber, upper, optic, furniture, and trigger, in that order. Price sorts itself out as you move thru the list, and makes some choices painfully obvious. If it's a milspec 5.56 with 16" midlength gas, the A3 upper is still desireable, a 3x9 variable doesn't match up, a sniper stock is wasted money, a free float even more so, and the trigger a feel good item. It's 2MOA - not 1/2 MOA - all those doodads wont' even begin to get it there, it's incapable of shooting better than 2MOA.

If anything, someone insisting one brand over the other is wasting everyone's time and missing the big picture - what's the best features to match what you want to do?

If it's just to blow $1000 and look cool posing at the next gun show, we've seen that with stainless tactical railed Mini 14's, and that guy searched long and hard for those black XXXL BDU's.

 

[Zerodefect]

M4 feed ramps are great if you ever rebarrel to 6.8spc, 6.5g, .50b, etc. etc. they're also great for SBR's like the M4.

They increase reliability in all those caliber and cost next to nothing. Every reliable AR I've ever owned has had them.

 

[kwelz]

And Zero I am calling BS to your lists. I believe that your post is just a parroting of internet storys as is that of Kwelz

Seriously?

You have multiple people telling you the same thing and because it doesn't match up with what YOU think you call them internet stories.
Are you intentionally trolling or do you just like arguing?

 

[mc223]

People are funny. One person tells a story and before long there is a whole heard of parrots following.
I also don't believe that a discussion with a gunsmith(who could very well be part of the heard) is justification for badmouthing any company.

Armorers for PMCs that work with these daily.

Who ?

Instructors that teach classes weekly.

Who ?

You seem to want spreadsheets and exact numbers. Nobody has compiled those. But there is plenty of evidence out there.

Why has nobody compiled such data?
Why have you not compiled such data?


All Mfrs and assemblers will have a quality issue at some point. Even what are termed as top tier.

Please report the failures of all. Not just your parroted opinion. This is not the M4 forum.



Apologies to the OP.


I think the colt will serve you well for years to come.

 

[kwelz]

People are funny. One person tells a story and before long there is a whole heard of parrots following.

So anyone who disagrees with you is just part of the herd?

I also don't believe that a discussion with a gunsmith(who could very well be part of the heard) is justification for badmouthing any company.

What in your opinion is justification for telling the truth about a companies shortcomings then?

(Armorers)Who ?

One in particular that comes to mind is Iraq Gunz on M4C.net. He worked in the sandbox for years. The bean counters choose their rifles and they used Bushmasters. They were a disaster.

(Instructors)Who ?

Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Chris Costa, Ken Hackathorn, Joe Barnsfather, the list goes on.

Why has nobody compiled such data?

Good question. Probably because it would be hard data to compile in a scientific fashion.

Why have you not compiled such data?

Because I don't have the money or time to test this many different weapons. I already wasted enough money on junk guns and had them fail. I don't need to do it again.

All Mfrs and assemblers will have a quality issue at some point. Even what are termed as top tier.

Please report the failures of all. Not just your parroted opinion. This is not the M4 forum.

Nobody claimed otherwise. The question is which fail more. And the answer is that companies like DPMS and Bushmaster fail more often than BCM, Colt, etc. I am not sure why you have a hard time believing this. There are those of us who have seen it with our own eyes.

 

[suzukisam]

mc223_ your just wasting your time typing, people really believe colt invented the AR and that milspec = reliability, colts are great rifles, but they have had their own QC issues.

The funny thing is that colt doesn't make as good of an AR as someone can build from random companies parts. people drink brand koolaid and they can't see past it...

OP if you can afford a colt, by all means you'll not be disappointing, you'll have a very fine rifle..

oh and kwels, no matter how hard you kick it, it still won't get up and let you ride it.. bushy, dpms, armalite, cmmg..ect, all make great rifles. If you wanna believe that they are prone to being junk go ahead, buy whatever roll mark you want.. thats about as much difference as there is in MOST ARs

 

[kwelz]

oh and kwels, no matter how hard you kick it, it still won't get up and let you ride it.. bushy, dpms, armalite, cmmg..ect, all make great rifles. If you wanna believe that they are prone to being junk go ahead, buy whatever roll mark you want.. thats about as much difference as there is in MOST ARs

this is the kind of comment that really gets my goat. It shows a lack of research and understanding in a subject. The differences are well documented. From the materials used to the level of testing and QC involved. I am not sure what is so hard to understand about that for some people. Whether those differences are important to you is one thing. But to deny the differences is just ignoring reality.