M-16 Forward Assist ... did you need it?

[12Bravo20]

Threads always end up like this one when ever someone asks if a forward assist is needed or if anyone actually uses it. And it is the same on every forum I belong to.

In the end, it is not necessary for most civilians to have or need. So if you don't want it, buy an upper without the forward assist.

Some have a legitimate reason to want the forward assist whether it be for hunting or other reasons. And there are those of us that the forward assist was needed and used while in the military and want our civilian rifles to be the same as what we were issued.

Buy what you want and don't worry about what others think.

 

[trackskippy]

You arent going to "quietly" close a bolt on a loaded M3 or STEN.

 

[12Bravo20]

You arent going to "quietly" close a bolt on a loaded M3 or STEN.

Yeah that doesn't work so well on open bolt submachine guns

 

[lysanderxiii]

I can do that with my thumb in the notch in the bolt carrier for the port door.

And, I can push the little button on the back of the receiver without moving my hand from the grip.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I was introduced to the M-16 in advanced infantry training at Camp Pendleton in 1969. Before that, I qualified with the M1 Garand, the M2 select-fire 30 carbine, and the M-14 without forward assists.

Uhh . . . .

The M1 Garand, M2 Carbine and M14 all do have forward assists. It's that hook shaped thing on the side of the operating rod, you can also use it to open the action.

 

[LimaCharlie]

Uhh . . . .

The M1 Garand, M2 Carbine and M14 all do have forward assists. It's that hook shaped thing on the side of the operating rod, you can also use it to open the action.

Never used those either.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Never used those either.

Then how did you open the bolt?

 

[shafter]

I've used it to quietly chamber a round at work before. Never needed it aside from that.

 

[daniel craig]

Not once. Not even in combat. When I was in the Army the line of logic was that if you needed to use the forward assist, you're better off addressing and properly fixing the malfunction before you make it potentially worse by using the forward assist.
Our Unit SOP modified sports so that instead of smacking the mag, just remove it, rack the charging handle, check, reload and keep shooting.

 

[cfullgraf]

I prefer the look of a smooth side AR-15, but I’ll take function over form these days and build my AR-15’s with the forward assist.

Except for two of my rifles built for Service Rifle Competition, all my AR-15’s are built for sporting use. For one reason or another, frequently operator brain fade, the bolt gets retarded on charging and fails to go into battery. The forward assists helps here.

I have one or two smooth side AR-15’s. If the bolt does not go into battery, I cannot push on the recess in the bolt to get it into battery. My thumbs just do not have the oomph any more.

I have one side pull AR-15. It works fine but I prefer a forward assist AR-15. I usually have a brass catcher on the rifle when shooting in the field and the side pull handle interferes with the brass catcher.

But, flexibility of options is one of the AR-15 benefits.

 

[Slamfire]

I can recall bumping the operating rod on a M1 Garand or M1a to close the bolt. Don't remember what every problem was. However, since a Long Range Champion showed me his palm, I have been thinking, maybe bumping the operating rod is a bad thing.

This Long Range Champ is an actual shooting legend, and still alive running matches. And he is the last living individual on Gen Curtis LeMay's source selection test team, the USAF team that developed test criteria to find an alternative to the M1 Carbine as a USAF base security weapon. LR Champ told me various shooting tests, the one I remember is holding the weapon with one hand on full auto. As I recall the USAF tested the M14, the M1 carbine, the AR15, and the AK47. Might have been more that I don't remember. The AK47's were all battlefield capture weapons, things that had been through the wringer, so to say. The best overall weapon was the AK47 but, as LR Champ said, adoption of the AK was politically unfeasible!

Anyway LR Champ was shooting 600 yard prone slow with a USAF NM M14 when he had a LC NM round misfeed. Apparently it stopped short of bolt closure on the feed ramp. So LR Champ hit the operating rod with his palm. That's when he had his out of battery slamfire experience! The round ignited and the lugs were not in battery. The operating rod sliced through his palm, I think he said 31 stitches. I have a picture of his palm, won't release it as long as he is on this earth, to spare him the accusations that come from slam fire deniers. Deniers will be deniers. LR Champ also said "don't tell me M14's won't slamfire out of battery!" I am sure he has heard that many times.

Maybe it is best practice to extract a round that won't feed, that should eliminate slamfires as a potential issue.

Practicing slow fire prone with my Garand, I did have a failure to go into battery, and I reached up and hit the operating rod. Several times, and then I figured out it was just not going to close. There was a good reason the bolt was not going to close.



If I had been able to close the bolt, with something wrapped around the case neck, have to wonder if something wonderful would have happened after I pulled the trigger!

 

[citizenconn]

I usually have a brass catcher on the rifle when shooting in the field and the side pull handle interferes with the brass catcher.

I catch all my brass as well and have a number of side charging ARs. I use a Brass Goat or similar on my AR15s, even the side charging ones. After trial and error on numerous brands it causes the lease amount of mishaps for me. For my large frame ARs, I still have not found a brass catcher that is super reliable, though.

https://brassgoat.com/products/brass-goat

 

[CptnAwesome]

I doubt I will need to do that once I start shooting. If the gun does not go into battery while I am shooting the last thing I am going to do is try the forward assist. I will be getting that bad round out of the gun not trying to jam it into the chamber

I'm not sure about current training but we were always trained to do that first. If rifle didn't go bang, hit forward assist twice, try again. If that didn't work "Tap, Rack, Bang". Tap (slap bottom of magazine to seat), Rack the charging handle. Should go Bang after that.

I won't buy an AR without one even though I may never use it, but that's me. It's kinda like concealed carry. I've never needed it, and prob never will, but on the off chance I do.....

 

[CptnAwesome]

Hmmmm... Justifying the FA always feels like justifying carrying a second handgun for civilians CCW. You guys have come up with plausible examples but my own risk aversion is apparently not sensitive enough to take serious. Been shooting in competition and hunting with ARs for the past nearly 20 years. I have had my fair share of malfunctions and I still have yet to make a situation better with a foreword assist and when I got my first AR I definitely made a few jams much worst with it. I don't ever press check a gun, I look at my magazine if I think it did not pick up a round. I quiet close with my thumb on the very rare occasion I need a quiet close. Given my own experience I would rather not carry that ~2 oz. YMMV

Good point! This has been an interesting discussion. When it boils down to it, I guess it comes down to preferences and what works for you.

 

[cfullgraf]

I catch all my brass as well and have a number of side charging ARs. I use a Brass Goat or similar on my AR15s, even the side charging ones. After trial and error on numerous brands it causes the lease amount of mishaps for me. For my large frame ARs, I still have not found a brass catcher that is super reliable, though.

https://brassgoat.com/products/brass-goat

Interesting brass catcher. I may give one a try.

My brass catcher is Caldwell's unit that mounts to the picatinny rail via an adapter that allows removal of the basket without any tools. I should have said "the brass catcher interferes with my using the side pull handle."

 

[trackskippy]

I can recall bumping the operating rod on a M1 Garand or M1a to close the bolt. Don't remember what every problem was. However, since a Long Range Champion showed me his palm, I have been thinking, maybe bumping the operating rod is a bad thing.

This Long Range Champ is an actual shooting legend, and still alive running matches. And he is the last living individual on Gen Curtis LeMay's source selection test team, the USAF team that developed test criteria to find an alternative to the M1 Carbine as a USAF base security weapon. LR Champ told me various shooting tests, the one I remember is holding the weapon with one hand on full auto. As I recall the USAF tested the M14, the M1 carbine, the AR15, and the AK47. Might have been more that I don't remember. The AK47's were all battlefield capture weapons, things that had been through the wringer, so to say. The best overall weapon was the AK47 but, as LR Champ said, adoption of the AK was politically unfeasible!

Anyway LR Champ was shooting 600 yard prone slow with a USAF NM M14 when he had a LC NM round misfeed. Apparently it stopped short of bolt closure on the feed ramp. So LR Champ hit the operating rod with his palm. That's when he had his out of battery slamfire experience! The round ignited and the lugs were not in battery. The operating rod sliced through his palm, I think he said 31 stitches. I have a picture of his palm, won't release it as long as he is on this earth, to spare him the accusations that come from slam fire deniers. Deniers will be deniers. LR Champ also said "don't tell me M14's won't slamfire out of battery!" I am sure he has heard that many times.

Maybe it is best practice to extract a round that won't feed, that should eliminate slamfires as a potential issue.

Practicing slow fire prone with my Garand, I did have a failure to go into battery, and I reached up and hit the operating rod. Several times, and then I figured out it was just not going to close. There was a good reason the bolt was not going to close.

View attachment 1132663

If I had been able to close the bolt, with something wrapped around the case neck, have to wonder if something wonderful would have happened after I pulled the trigger!

Its amazing sometimes all the flak you catch from the M1/M14/M1A shooters that insist on telling you tell you that they cant fire out of battery.

Mine only took about 10 stitches.



Im just lucky it was the slow fire prone string, and the rifle wasnt in my shoulder when it happened. Never did find the rear of the receiver from the serial number back.

Mine didnt happen with the bump of my hand on the charging handle, I had slipped a round into the chamber and let the bolt go. That was also the last time I ever loaded an M1 that way.

Ive had them a couple of times in my one AR too, when using Winchester primers in my reloads and when a suppressor was mounted. Was getting 3-4 round bursts with it. AR's arent supposed to do that either. At least the gun didnt come apart.

One thing Ive come to realize is, a lot of people dont have a clue as to whats really going on, basically right at their face, while they are firing things like high power rifles. A lot is just taken for granted. Over the years, Ive seen the results on a number of guns, rifles, handguns, and a belt fed that had issues and/or came apart while being fired, and its an eye opening thing when you see it go on. Some people are just way too cavalier about this sort of thing too.

Once you get to experience it, or see it go on first hand, you get a whole different perspective on things.

Interesting brass catcher. I may give one a try.

My brass catcher is Caldwell's unit that mounts to the picatinny rail via an adapter that allows removal of the basket without any tools. I should have said "the brass catcher interferes with my using the side pull handle."

I use the Caldwell "net bag" type catchers on a couple of my AR's, and they work very well.

One thing I really like about them is, you can move around while youre shooting (and quite energetically) and Ive yet to have any of the brass from in the bag cause any problems. They are also quiet, and will hold quite a bit.

Just remember to zip the bottom closed if you empty them that way. I couldnt figure out what was hitting my feet while I was shooting the first time it happened to me.

 

[Caplock]

I hunt coyotes with an AR sometimes. Can't just drop the bolt when you load up at the truck. That would be the same as slaming the truck door.
Ease it down and use forward assist to finish closing the bolt.

 

[stanley_white]

New Year’s Resolution for 2023: Eat right and exercise so my Body Mass Index will be so low that I can engage in the luxury of worrying about the extra 2oz of forward assist weight on my AR.

-Stan

 

[mcb]

New Year’s Resolution for 2023: Eat right and exercise so my Body Mass Index will be so low that I can engage in the luxury of worrying about the extra 2oz of forward assist weight on my AR.

-Stan

Ounces are pounds, pounds are pain.

 

[12Bravo20]

I'll take a M16 or AR15 and full combat load with that extra two ounces from the forward assist over carrying the PIG (M60). Yes it was pleasure to give up the PIG and go back to carrying the M16A2 once I made E5.

I have used the forward assist under harsh conditions during training and combat so I do want to have it on all of my civilian AR's too.

 

[Peakbagger46]

Hmmmm... Justifying the FA always feels like justifying carrying a second handgun for civilians CCW. You guys have come up with plausible examples but my own risk aversion is apparently not sensitive enough to take serious. Been shooting in competition and hunting with ARs for the past nearly 20 years. I have had my fair share of malfunctions and I still have yet to make a situation better with a foreword assist and when I got my first AR I definitely made a few jams much worst with it. I don't ever press check a gun, I look at my magazine if I think it did not pick up a round. I quiet close with my thumb on the very rare occasion I need a quiet close. Given my own experience I would rather not carry that ~2 oz. YMMV

The press check is very important to some of us in harms way with a touch of OCD

 

[cfullgraf]

Just remember to zip the bottom closed if you empty them that way. I couldnt figure out what was hitting my feet while I was shooting the first time it happened to me.

Right on keeping the zipper on the bag closed.

Things are too bad if shooting from a fixed position, the cases end up by your feet. But if moving around, you end up with an empty bag at the end of the string.

While I have have the brass catcher adapter mounts on many of my AR-15 rifles, my long, heavy barrel 204 Ruger prairie dog AR-15 rifle gets the most use from a brass catcher.

Where I shoot prairie dogs, the land owners really would like shooters to police their brass.

 

[Pat Riot]

I have not read all the responses. I did not use the M16 in the military. I was in the Navy when we still had M14s.
I have only purchased 1AR15 fully assembled and built several others. All had an FA except 1.
Never needed a FA, but the lack of a FA did one thing for me. It made me be more conscientious about cleaning and lubing the rifle more often.

 

[Macchina]

I hate them and brass deflectors on uppers. They significantly add to the width of the gun.
Having said that, I've used it probably 10 times hunting or shooting.

Once was in about 0 degree weather and at the time I was greasing most everything on an AR (instead of oil). The gun was very sluggish and required the FA several times until everything heated up.

When hunting with an AR (223 for coyote and a different 350 Legend for Deer) and to load a round quietly I would ride the charging handle forward then use the FA to fully seat the bolt. The noise of charging an AR is one of the main drawbacks of using them for hunting. It's not a big deal, but requires a lot more care than a bolt or lever action.

 

[mcb]

The press check is very important to some of us in harms way with a touch of OCD

The look/feel the magazine, insert, chamber, release the magazine and look/feel the top round is now on the other feed lip trick was taught to me by MARSOC marine. As a unit they did that rather than press checks. It was easier to do and ensure things were in battery. Press check caused more issues then they solved in their experience.