M1 Carbine v. AR-15

[Elkins45]

Even mil-surp ball is far from "inferior"
To assert it is inferior reeks of internet regurgitation by folks with zero experience
Maybe we will be regaled with "My gran-paw said the 30 Carbine rounds bounced off helmets and heavy winter coats"

I assert it is inferior based on total kinetic energy, availability, and cost per round. That’s a lot of inferiority, and that’s before we even start considering alternative AR rounds like the very capable 300 Blackout.

Of course, I’m happy to defer to your greater experience. You have shot multiple people with both rounds in order to compare them, right?

 

[amd6547]

The M1 Carbine had a long successful history of use by law enforcement. In fact, a friends dad who was a Cleveland police officer used one during the big race riots we had here in the 1960’s. Jim Cirillo had nothing but good things to say about the .30 Carbine soft point, and used it with the NYPD Stakeout squad.

 

[SmeeAgain]

The M1 Carbine was my all time favorite until I went in the military & shot the M16a1 for the first time.
I really like them both but the AR-15 would be my first choice. Runner up is still the M1 Carbine.
Beyond that... anything that shoots, within reach works when I truly need it.

 

[Beck]

LOL. Are you sure you didn't mix up your guns there at the end?

The choice here was the Carbine or the AR.

Hmmm... I was speaking the King's English. I have a Ruger Mini-30. I want to get a second Mini-30 before I purchase any more firearms. Too put it another way... the M1 Carbine is on my short list. Read it again. I was not offering the Mini-30 as an alternative.

And I was the one who first reminded everyone in post #35 that this thread is M1 Carbine vs AR-15.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/m1-carbine-v-ar-15.901732/page-2#post-12210441

 

[trackskippy]

I was mostly referring to this part.

People who choose an AR over any other gun in answer to a question like this are more likely to be the nostalgic ones, the unimaginative ones, and the inexperienced ones... a little wet behind the ears.

 

[Skinny Pete]

I assert it is inferior based on total kinetic energy, availability, and cost per round.

You made no such assertion
In fact you didn't even make a relative comparison
You simply stated it is an inferior round
But your back-peddling has been noted

Of course, I’m happy to defer to your greater experience. You have shot multiple people with both rounds in order to compare them, right?

Your nonsensical projection to try and obfuscate has also been noted

 

[Skinny Pete]

The M1 Carbine had a long successful history of use by law enforcement. In fact, a friends dad who was a Cleveland police officer used one during the big race riots we had here in the 1960’s. Jim Cirillo had nothing but good things to say about the .30 Carbine soft point, and used it with the NYPD Stakeout squad.

That it does
Reading the first hand accounts of actual users tells quite a tale as to it's excellent effectiveness
Which is one of the reasons for the military to push for further development of "inferior" cartridges to replace to heavy rifle calibers

 

[jski]

M1 Carbine: A Whole New Class of Weapon

 

[codytrucker]

I've had 2 M1 carbines ,one sold , one stolen . in the 80's . Wish you could still buy one for a hundred bucks . I have 2 AR's now , one a carbine .300 B.O. If someone has one of each , I'd like to see a drill where you stand turned away and have someone place 3 to 5 targets at random ranges from 15 to 35 or 50 yards , and spread out over a fairly wide arc . With the rifle on a table , or low carry . turn and get 2 shots into all targets , timed . I think the handiness of the M1 will win out , but I honestly don't know .

 

[Skinny Pete]

M1 Carbine: A Whole New Class of Weapon

The entire first 4 minutes is 100% BS
The M1 Carbine was never intended to replace the 1911, and it was never intended for use by cooks, clerks, etc
The LRP was always intended to develop a weapon for front line use... always
Not my opinion, but actually stated in the original LRP documents
This is further bolstered by the TO&E's from the date the M1 Carbine got into the Army's hands

Yet the BS myth keeps getting regurgitated as fact
Just like the myth of 30 Carbine bullets not penetrating heavy winter coats or bouncing off helmets

 

[Elkins45]

You made no such assertion
In fact you didn't even make a relative comparison
You simply stated it is an inferior round
But your back-peddling has been noted


Your nonsensical projection to try and obfuscate has also been noted

You don’t actually know what the word “inferior” means, do you? It implies a comparison with the cartridges chambered in the other platform being discussed, which was the AR. Do try to keep up.

I stand by my statements. And you’re going to need to establish better bonafides than just using a bunch of emojis if you’re going to contradict a published expert like Ian.

 

[md7]

I’d prefer an AR over an M1 carbine.

Great general purpose/defensive rifle. Modular, reliable, parts are common, mags are plentiful and affordable, easy to mount optics.

 

[sarduy]

Your original assertion...

The AR platform is nearly 70 years old
The AR-15 was simply a scaled down AR-10, which took place in 1956
2022 - 1956 = 66
The AR-15 is nearly 70 years old

true but the AR of 70 years ago can’t compare to the ARs of today’s. Look at Knights Armament, Aero precision and Radian.

I don’t think they had those back in 1966

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I'd take the AR over the M1 in a HD setting. But I personally take the RDB over the AR. Found it handier inside, while the AR was more accurate over long ranges, and swapped optics on both.

 

[35 Whelen]

Geez there's a lot of B.S. being flung about here!! Typical of these threads, there's folks with LOTS of experience with AR's, but little to none with M1 Carbine's, and these are the folks who repeat what they've read elsewhere or conjured up in their minds.

The cartridges- Across a room or even the length of a house, the difference in the .223 and .30 Carbine, with good expanding projectiles, is insignificant and there's no such things as "deader". If you put either cartridge to good use, you're going to get the same results. My favorite photo to illustrate the power of the "inferior" .30 Carbine, comes from me accidentally shooting my 100 yd. target stand, which I fabricated from 1 1/4" 14 ga. square tubing.



And on the subject of "power", sorry, but bullet energy is not an indicator of killing power. If it were, then we'd have no need in expanding bullets because FMJ bullets have the same amount of energy as their expanding counterparts when the bullets weigh the same and are run at like velocities.

The platforms- I own both M1 Carbines and AR-15's. The AR-15/M4 I keep in the closet, with a 30 round magazine and no gadgets, flashlights, laser sights, bipods, etc., weighs 8.5 lbs. A carbine with no sling and oiler and a 15 round magazine weighs 5.75 lbs. If you want to pick nits, you can add another couple ounces to the carbine because of fewer rounds, if you wish. Add a sling, oiler and bayonet lug and it's still under 6.5 lbs.

To me there's just nothing "handy" about an AR-15. They're sort of like wielding an 8.5 lb. (more with red dots, flashlights, laser lights, etc.) crucifix while a carbine is more like a pointing a pool cue.

The carbine's are much more simple and user friendly. I recently completed a six week academy prior to beginning a new job, which included qualifying with a S&W Model 64, a Remington 870 and a 16" AR. The shooters who had never handled an AR really struggled with all the controls. A buddy called me a couple of weeks ago and needing help with his new Ruger AR. Seems it wouldn't feed at all. Upon locking the bolt back I saw the problem; there was an empty (steel) case stuck in the chamber. (So much for: Bruh....I've fired 3000 rounds through muh AR and never had a single problem. ) A couple of things came to mind- First, when things go wrong with an AR one should probably have a flashlight and a pair of tweezers handy. Seriously. The ejection port is tiny and at best, difficult to see in. Second, your average shooter probably has no idea how to correct problems with the AR on the fly. With the carbine, if a shooter can tell the difference between the rotary safety and the mag release, the rest is easy. I can hand my wife a carbine and not have to explain to her a bolt catch, safety, forward assist, magazine release and charging handle.

So now that I've PO'ed all the AR lovers, I will say use what you want as either will do nicely. But for those with limited experience, I think the carbine is a much better choice.

35W

 

[Skinny Pete]

You don’t actually know what the word “inferior” means, do you? It implies a comparison with the cartridges chambered in the other platform being discussed, which was the AR. Do try to keep up.

Your reliance on ad hominem implies your feels are hurt and your argument is weak

And you’re going to need to establish better bonafides than just using a bunch of emojis

I guess you missed the parts about USA LRP docs and USA TO&E's
I'll be waiting* for you to factually refute them both

if you’re going to contradict a published expert like Ian.

I love how you mention "published" as if that actually means something is credible
People have "published" literally blank books













*not really waiting because those Army "publications" prove my statements

 

[jski]

Geez there's a lot of B.S. being flung about here!! Typical of these threads, there's folks with LOTS of experience with AR's, but little to none with M1 Carbine's, and these are the folks who repeat what they've read elsewhere or conjured up in their minds.

The cartridges- Across a room or even the length of a house, the difference in the .223 and .30 Carbine, with good expanding projectiles, is insignificant and there's no such things as "deader". If you put either cartridge to good use, you're going to get the same results. My favorite photo to illustrate the power of the "inferior" .30 Carbine, comes from me accidentally shooting my 100 yd. target stand, which I fabricated from 1 1/4" 14 ga. square tubing.

View attachment 1059754

And on the subject of "power", sorry, but bullet energy is not an indicator of killing power. If it were, then we'd have no need in expanding bullets because FMJ bullets have the same amount of energy as their expanding counterparts when the bullets weigh the same and are run at like velocities.

The platforms- I own both M1 Carbines and AR-15's. The AR-15/M4 I keep in the closet, with a 30 round magazine and no gadgets, flashlights, laser sights, bipods, etc., weighs 8.5 lbs. A carbine with no sling and oiler and a 15 round magazine weighs 5.75 lbs. If you want to pick nits, you can add another couple ounces to the carbine because of fewer rounds, if you wish. Add a sling, oiler and bayonet lug and it's still under 6.5 lbs.

To me there's just nothing "handy" about an AR-15. They're sort of like wielding an 8.5 lb. (more with red dots, flashlights, laser lights, etc.) crucifix while a carbine is more like a pointing a pool cue.

The carbine's are much more simple and user friendly. I recently completed a six week academy prior to beginning a new job, which included qualifying with a S&W Model 64, a Remington 870 and a 16" AR. The shooters who had never handled an AR really struggled with all the controls. A buddy called me a couple of weeks ago and needing help with his new Ruger AR. Seems it wouldn't feed at all. Upon locking the bolt back I saw the problem; there was an empty (steel) case stuck in the chamber. (So much for: Bruh....I've fired 3000 rounds through muh AR and never had a single problem. ) A couple of things came to mind- First, when things go wrong with an AR one should probably have a flashlight and a pair of tweezers handy. Seriously. The ejection port is tiny and at best, difficult to see in. Second, your average shooter probably has no idea how to correct problems with the AR on the fly. With the carbine, if a shooter can tell the difference between the rotary safety and the mag release, the rest is easy. I can hand my wife a carbine and not have to explain to her a bolt catch, safety, forward assist, magazine release and charging handle.

So now that I've PO'ed all the AR lovers, I will say use what you want as either will do nicely. But for those with limited experience, I think the carbine is a much better choice.

35W

Exactly! I have brothers and nephews and sons-in-law, all with ARs of various ilks, all willing to make unequivocal statements, but none with any real M1 Carbine experience.

 

[Skinny Pete]

Geez there's a lot of B.S. being flung about here!! Typical of these threads, there's folks with LOTS of experience with AR's, but little to none with M1 Carbine's, and these are the folks who repeat what they've read elsewhere or conjured up in their minds.

The cartridges- Across a room or even the length of a house, the difference in the .223 and .30 Carbine, with good expanding projectiles, is insignificant and there's no such things as "deader". If you put either cartridge to good use, you're going to get the same results. My favorite photo to illustrate the power of the "inferior" .30 Carbine, comes from me accidentally shooting my 100 yd. target stand, which I fabricated from 1 1/4" 14 ga. square tubing.

View attachment 1059754

And on the subject of "power", sorry, but bullet energy is not an indicator of killing power. If it were, then we'd have no need in expanding bullets because FMJ bullets have the same amount of energy as their expanding counterparts when the bullets weigh the same and are run at like velocities.

The platforms- I own both M1 Carbines and AR-15's. The AR-15/M4 I keep in the closet, with a 30 round magazine and no gadgets, flashlights, laser sights, bipods, etc., weighs 8.5 lbs. A carbine with no sling and oiler and a 15 round magazine weighs 5.75 lbs. If you want to pick nits, you can add another couple ounces to the carbine because of fewer rounds, if you wish. Add a sling, oiler and bayonet lug and it's still under 6.5 lbs.

To me there's just nothing "handy" about an AR-15. They're sort of like wielding an 8.5 lb. (more with red dots, flashlights, laser lights, etc.) crucifix while a carbine is more like a pointing a pool cue.

The carbine's are much more simple and user friendly. I recently completed a six week academy prior to beginning a new job, which included qualifying with a S&W Model 64, a Remington 870 and a 16" AR. The shooters who had never handled an AR really struggled with all the controls. A buddy called me a couple of weeks ago and needing help with his new Ruger AR. Seems it wouldn't feed at all. Upon locking the bolt back I saw the problem; there was an empty (steel) case stuck in the chamber. (So much for: Bruh....I've fired 3000 rounds through muh AR and never had a single problem. ) A couple of things came to mind- First, when things go wrong with an AR one should probably have a flashlight and a pair of tweezers handy. Seriously. The ejection port is tiny and at best, difficult to see in. Second, your average shooter probably has no idea how to correct problems with the AR on the fly. With the carbine, if a shooter can tell the difference between the rotary safety and the mag release, the rest is easy. I can hand my wife a carbine and not have to explain to her a bolt catch, safety, forward assist, magazine release and charging handle.

So now that I've PO'ed all the AR lovers, I will say use what you want as either will do nicely. But for those with limited experience, I think the carbine is a much better choice.

35W

All good points
Pick whichever you enjoy and have fun, either will do just fine serving it's user for self defense

As it relates to "power", the 30 Carbine craters the snot out of my AR500 targets. But when it comes to 556 I shoot it almost exclusively from my 20" AUG's and none of the common weights crater the same targets, just nice neat splashes. Interesting physics at work

 

[Elkins45]

Your reliance on ad hominem implies your feels are hurt and your argument is weak

No reliance on ad hominem, just pointing out that you went into attack mode against a clear point. With the exception of lower power blowback rounds that some AR rifles are chambered in (22LR or 9mm as examples) it is irrefutable that the most common AR chambering (223 and 300 BO) are superior in every possible metric by which firearm cartridges are evaluated, certainly in terms of any defensive criteria. That makes the M1 carbine round inferior by comparison. All your attack of my original post was based on you either not understanding that or ignoring it. So just to put this back on track let me ask you a direct question: in what ways is the 30 M1 carbine round superior to the 223 or 300 Blackout as a defensive cartridge?

I guess you missed the parts about USA LRP docs and USA TO&E's
I'll be waiting* for you to factually refute them both

You listed a bunch of initialisms. I have no idea what they actually contain. Since you seem to know then how about quoting relevant sections? But even if you do it still won't make the cartridge any better ballistically.

I love how you mention "published" as if that actually means something is credible

Ian is a well-respected and frequently quoted firearms researcher. He is considered very credible in the military arms community. He is a known quantity whereas you are a guy who just showed up here in January seemingly just to defend the M1 carbine against perceived heresy.

 

[codytrucker]

Geez there's a lot of B.S. being flung about here!! Typical of these threads, there's folks with LOTS of experience with AR's, but little to none with M1 Carbine's, and these are the folks who repeat what they've read elsewhere or conjured up in their minds.

The cartridges- Across a room or even the length of a house, the difference in the .223 and .30 Carbine, with good expanding projectiles, is insignificant and there's no such things as "deader". If you put either cartridge to good use, you're going to get the same results. My favorite photo to illustrate the power of the "inferior" .30 Carbine, comes from me accidentally shooting my 100 yd. target stand, which I fabricated from 1 1/4" 14 ga. square tubing.

View attachment 1059754

And on the subject of "power", sorry, but bullet energy is not an indicator of killing power. If it were, then we'd have no need in expanding bullets because FMJ bullets have the same amount of energy as their expanding counterparts when the bullets weigh the same and are run at like velocities.

The platforms- I own both M1 Carbines and AR-15's. The AR-15/M4 I keep in the closet, with a 30 round magazine and no gadgets, flashlights, laser sights, bipods, etc., weighs 8.5 lbs. A carbine with no sling and oiler and a 15 round magazine weighs 5.75 lbs. If you want to pick nits, you can add another couple ounces to the carbine because of fewer rounds, if you wish. Add a sling, oiler and bayonet lug and it's still under 6.5 lbs.

To me there's just nothing "handy" about an AR-15. They're sort of like wielding an 8.5 lb. (more with red dots, flashlights, laser lights, etc.) crucifix while a carbine is more like a pointing a pool cue.

The carbine's are much more simple and user friendly. I recently completed a six week academy prior to beginning a new job, which included qualifying with a S&W Model 64, a Remington 870 and a 16" AR. The shooters who had never handled an AR really struggled with all the controls. A buddy called me a couple of weeks ago and needing help with his new Ruger AR. Seems it wouldn't feed at all. Upon locking the bolt back I saw the problem; there was an empty (steel) case stuck in the chamber. (So much for: Bruh....I've fired 3000 rounds through muh AR and never had a single problem. ) A couple of things came to mind- First, when things go wrong with an AR one should probably have a flashlight and a pair of tweezers handy. Seriously. The ejection port is tiny and at best, difficult to see in. Second, your average shooter probably has no idea how to correct problems with the AR on the fly. With the carbine, if a shooter can tell the difference between the rotary safety and the mag release, the rest is easy. I can hand my wife a carbine and not have to explain to her a bolt catch, safety, forward assist, magazine release and charging handle.

So now that I've PO'ed all the AR lovers, I will say use what you want as either will do nicely. But for those with limited experience, I think the carbine is a much better choice.

35W

Not to mention the M1 is easier to maintain control over if some one is trying to take it out of your hands , due to having both hands around the rifle , instead of one hand under it . And the ability to butt stroke , and thrust and parry .The main problem I see with the carbine is that they are so expensive now . hard to justify going out and finding one as a house gun , but if you have one , and it runs , you are by no means handicapped . I really wish some one would make a quality new one , in a few calibers , for a reasonable price . I'm thinking starting at about 5 or 6 hundred .

 

[Nuclear]

I’d choose the AR, but not because it is significantly better than the M1 Carbine at HD distances. It simply isn’t. It is, however, much easier and cheaper for me to replace (except for the required silencer), and has no historical value, unlike the WW II M1C that was carried in the war and later used by post war European police.

 

[jski]

I’d choose the AR, but not because it is significantly better than the M1 Carbine at HD distances. It simply isn’t. It is, however, much easier and cheaper for me to replace (except for the required silencer), and has no historical value, unlike the WW II M1C that was carried in the war and later used by post war European police.

You could contact Fulton Armory for a wonderful reproduction.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

The M1's muzzle blast isn't going to be as brutal... that's about all I can think of.

The M1 is also lighter than a stock M4gery with a medium weight barrel, but of course, you can build an AR into whatever you want it to be.

 

[Goosey]

Even mil-surp ball is far from "inferior"
To assert it is inferior reeks of internet regurgitation by folks with zero experience
Maybe we will be regaled with "My gran-paw said the 30 Carbine rounds bounced off helmets and heavy winter coats"

With FMJ in both the .30 Carbine is very much inferior, 5.56 ball will tumble and fragment.

 

[35 Whelen]

Not to mention the M1 is easier to maintain control over if some one is trying to take it out of your hands , due to having both hands around the rifle , instead of one hand under it . And the ability to butt stroke , and thrust and parry .The main problem I see with the carbine is that they are so expensive now . hard to justify going out and finding one as a house gun , but if you have one , and it runs , you are by no means handicapped . I really wish some one would make a quality new one , in a few calibers , for a reasonable price . I'm thinking starting at about 5 or 6 hundred .

Very good points regarding the physics of the little carbine. I never thought of that. And they are indeed very expensive. It doesn't make much sense to go out and buy one for HD unless one just wants an M1 Carbine.

With FMJ in both the .30 Carbine is very much inferior, 5.56 ball will tumble and fragment.

I don't put much stock in shooting gel blocks as I've never been attacked by one. If you've ever actually shot bullets into living flesh (deer for example) and tracked their path and destruction, you'll know that they rarely do what they do in gel. But in the interest of your post I found a couple of videos in which they shot 55 gr. FMJ's into gel and actually recovered the bullets. Both did tumble but neither fragmented. And it bears mentioning that a .30 caliber bullet starts out about 40% larger in diameter than a .22 caliber bullet, and in the case of the 55 gr. FMJ, the .30 caliber bullet in question is twice as heavy. All that said, why on earth would anyone choose FMJ in either caliber?

35W