M1 Carbine v. AR-15

[Goosey]

I don't put much stock in shooting gel blocks as I've never been attacked by one. If you've ever actually shot bullets into living flesh (deer for example) and tracked their path and destruction, you'll know that they rarely do what they do in gel. But in the interest of your post I found a couple of videos in which they shot 55 gr. FMJ's into gel and actually recovered the bullets. Both did tumble but neither fragmented. And it bears mentioning that a .30 caliber bullet starts out about 40% larger in diameter than a .22 caliber bullet, and in the case of the 55 gr. FMJ, the .30 caliber bullet in question is twice as heavy. All that said, why on earth would anyone choose FMJ in either caliber?

35W

Fragmenting of 5.56 FMJ is well documented not only in gelatin but on the battlefield and elsewhere (in a highly-publicized recent incident, see the unfortunate Gaige Grosskreutz, I doubt .30 Carbine FMJ would have anywhere near similar effect). Even if it fails to fragment it still is likely to tumble and cause effective wounds. Meanwhile small wounds from .30 carbine FMJ is also well documented not only in gelatin but also on the battlefield. It acts exactly like you would expect for a FMJRN. Larger diameter and weight is only relevant if both had a similar bullet design, it is .308" but a 55 gr 5.56 turned sideways is about 3/4" and moving 1000 fps faster. However soft points the carbine is very respectable. Jim Cirillo said it was an extremely effective stopper. I don't know why someone would choose FMJ in either for defense, but apparently they still do.

 

[someguy2800]

As expected this has devolved into emotional mud slinging. Like asking if a 69 camaro is better than a new one.

 

[Skinny Pete]

No reliance on ad hominem

just pointing out that you went into attack mode

Your feels sure are hurt
Poor lil fella

by comparison

Something you never made... oops

All your attack

Pot meet kettle

in what ways is the 30 M1 carbine round superior to the 223 or 300 Blackout as a defensive cartridge?

I never said it was or wasn't...
Just as you never specified a comparison...
Even though you'll just keep stomping your feet claiming you did
Calm down fella... no need to get so upset

You listed a bunch of initialisms. I have no idea what they actually contain.

You never heard of the US Army...?
Or the Light Rifle Program that was actually mentioned in your commie hero's video?
Or are you just feigning ignorance to try and get out of any attempt to refute my statement?

Since you seem to know then how about quoting relevant sections?

How about you factually refute as I asked...?

(good thing I already made it clear that I wouldn't be waiting... because I knew you would dodge it)

Ian is a well-respected and frequently quoted firearms researcher. He is considered very credible in the military arms community.

I love how every time you corner yourself... you try and move the bar
I mean you first based his "cred" on being "published" until you realized how silly that was
Now you act like you never said it and move the bar hoping no one notices
All while hiding behind more ad hominem... that you claim you aren't doing

He is a known quantity...

He essentially has little to no first hand real world experience
He reads the works of others then regurgitates it on YouTube for money
All while usually not giving any credit to those who did the actual research
He is wrong on this matter as is demonstrated by the USA... excuse me... US Army's own documents
Again... Still waiting for you to factually refute them

whereas you are a guy who just showed up here in January seemingly just to defend the M1 carbine against perceived heresy.

And again... your repeated ad hominem has been noted
Since you seem to only be able to hide behind it, I'm no longer going to waste any time with you and your trashing of this thread
If you act like an adult and stop...
If you factually refute as I asked several posts back...
Then I will happily join you in calm, rational debate
But until then I will leave you with your anger and hurt feelz

 

[jmorris]

As expected this has devolved into emotional mud slinging. Like asking if a 69 camaro is better than a new one.

Oddly enough, I would take the right ‘69 Camaro over a new one (not about performance) but would pick an AR over the M1 carbine every time if I am relying on their performance to remain living.

 

[Skinny Pete]

Fragmenting of 5.56 FMJ is well documented not only in gelatin but on the battlefield and elsewhere (in a highly-publicized recent incident, see the unfortunate Gaige Grosskreutz, I doubt .30 Carbine FMJ would have anywhere near similar effect).

Maybe I missed it, but where did anyone say that 30 Carbine fragmented...?

Meanwhile small wounds from .30 carbine FMJ is also well documented not only in gelatin but also on the battlefield

Can you cite any credible and verifiable documents that demonstrate how 30 Carbine is entirely ineffective...?

I don't know why someone would choose FMJ in either for defense

Why not?
There sure are an awful lot of dead enemy combatants, dead bad guys, and dead game animals from the "lowly" 30 Carbine FMJ
After WWII AND Korea the surplus Carbine and surplus FMJ became one of the most widely used hunting rifles
Guys loved it because it was familiar, inexpensive, and highly effective

 

[CoalTrain49]

USGI M1 is difficult to make 100% reliable. Magazines are always suspect. I've rebuilt mine a few times and don't recommend buying one for home defense. It's a range toy.

Just get something else.

 

[Elkins45]

Your feels sure are hurt
Poor lil fella



Something you never made... oops


Pot meet kettle


I never said it was or wasn't...
Just as you never specified a comparison...
Even though you'll just keep stomping your feet claiming you did
Calm down fella... no need to get so upset


You never heard of the US Army...?
Or the Light Rifle Program that was actually mentioned in your commie hero's video?
Oh I see... you're just feigning ignorance to try and get out of any attempt to refute my statement


How about you factually refute as I asked...?

(good thing I already made it clear that I wouldn't be waiting... because I knew you would dodge it)


I love every time you corner yourself... you try and move the bar
I mean you first based his "cred" on being "published" until you realized how silly that was
Now you act like you never said it and move the bar hoping no one notices
All while hiding behind more ad hominem... that you claim you aren't doing


He is wrong on this matter as is demonstrated by the USA... excuse me... US Army's own documents
Again... Still waiting for you to factually refute them


Again your repeated ad hominem has been noted
And since you seem to only be able to hide behind it, I'm no longer going to waste any time with you and your trashing of this thread
If you act like an adult and stop...
If you factually refute as I asked several posts back...
I will happily join you in calm, rational debate
But until then I will leave you with your anger and hurt feelz

So in other words you can’t make a case for how the 30 carbine round isn’t inferior to the 223 or 300 BO. Noted.

I said 30 carbine was inferior. You said it wasn’t (with no supporting detail) and then went into an insulting rant about grandpa’s war stories. The ad hominem and bar moving all came from you.

Just take the L gracefully and move on.

 

[Skinny Pete]

I really wish some one would make a quality new one , in a few calibers , for a reasonable price . I'm thinking starting at about 5 or 6 hundred .

Does anyone make any semi-auto rifle today for $500-600 that is of the same quality, forged steel and wood, as the M1 Carbine?

 

[Elkins45]

Does anyone make any semi-auto rifle today for $500-600 that is of the same quality, forged steel and wood, as the M1 Carbine?

Wow, something we can finally agree on. No, they don’t. An M1 carbine would probably be a $1000-$1200 gun today. They are probably the best handling centerfire rifle ever made IMO, certainly the best auto loader. The Tikka lightweight bolt gun comes close, but that’s comparing apples to crab apples.

 

[JJFitch]

The idea that handgun cartridges are less penetrative is a common one, but the opposite of true. Almost all effective 5.56 mm ammunition has less penetration than most 9 mm defensive ammunition, and double-ought buckshot. The common 110 grain 30 carbine soft point is extremely penetrative, seeing that it is a relatively low velocity SP.

View attachment 1059651

Randy Garrett used to say that the reason his .45-70 loads penetrated so deeply was the heavy, hardcast bullet and the low velocity. The opposite is also true: a good way to reduce over penetration concerns is to use a fast load with a light-for-caliber bullet (though 75 and 77grain 5.56mm and .223 also have good reputations).

I like the M1 Carbine a lot, but don't fall victim to mindlessly repeating something, just because you've heard lots of other people say or write it.

John

How does the .30 Carbine do against walls interior and exterior compared to other similar caliber for weight cartridges?
Gel blocks and more solid structures aren't the same.

Smiles,

 

[Skinny Pete]

USGI M1 is difficult to make 100% reliable. Magazines are always suspect.

Not really, USGI parts are still readily available (just getting very expensive ) and there are quality new production parts available as well. Same for magazines, USGI still readily available and two sources for quality commercial. I've found the big issue with Carbines is that people today don't seem to have the same skillsets as years ago, even a quality gunsmith is a rare bird these day. People buy a GI Carbine and often don't even know how to check specs, then when they try to just replace something end up making the issue worse not knowing that something else is out of spec.

Most of these Carbines saw a hard life and often weren't taken care of properly, but people buy them expecting them to run like new, and when they don't they blame the design. I have Carbines that were like new when I bought them 40 years ago, and I have others that were beat up dogs that needed to be completely rebuilt, either type will run side by side with a modern AR, AK, FN, HK, Etc

Either way, folks should buy and use whatever they want and enjoy it... thats the great thing about choices

 

[Carl N. Brown]

.223 bullets at 3000 fps fragment on impact with water almost like they hit a brick wall.
.30 carbine bullets at 1900 fps will penetrate deeper in water.
In the 1956 movie "The Sharkfighters" Victor Mature used an M1 Carbine.
So that settles it.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I recall that in the 60's the M1 carbine was a very desirable surplus firearm for HD and hunting. They were so popular that there was a factory where I live (Universal) that made new ones & my father who was former military worked there for several years. There were racks full of cheaply priced surplus M1's in all the gun shops and more than once my father was asked by a friend to accompany them to the LGS and help them pick "the best" one from the racks. I loved that because he would take me with him and I would get to handle them and listen to the discussion. .I don't recall anyone worrying about their reliability. They were highly desirable because (back then) a surplus M1 carbine was very cheap, recoil was extremely mild, surplus ammo was everywhere & even though the cartridge wasn't powerful when compared to the 30-06 it did the job.

Since the thread is about HD to me when someone mentions the AR-15 I always assume it's a 223 which to me is excessive for urban or suburban HD conditions. In pistol format as some suggest an AR-15 would be very handy inside a house but I have experienced the deafening muzzle blast of these pistol AR's at the outdoor range so I have to assume that inside a house it must be unbearable.

However an AR-15 in 9 mm or 45 ACP for HD is totally different and considering the prices being asked for M1 carbines these days either of those two would be my choice over the M1 carbine.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Does anyone make any semi-auto rifle today for $500-600 that is of the same quality, forged steel and wood, as the M1 Carbine?

Not really, USGI parts are still readily available (just getting very expensive ) and there are quality new production parts available as well. Same for magazines, USGI still readily available and two sources for quality commercial. I've found the big issue with Carbines is that people today don't seem to have the same skillsets as years ago, even a quality gunsmith is a rare bird these day. People buy a GI Carbine and often don't even know how to check specs, then when they try to just replace something end up making the issue worse not knowing that something else is out of spec.

Most of these Carbines saw a hard life and often weren't taken care of properly, but people buy them expecting them to run like new, and when they don't they blame the design. I have Carbines that were like new when I bought them 40 years ago, and I have others that were beat up dogs that needed to be completely rebuilt, either type will run side by side with a modern AR, AK, FN, HK, Etc

Either way, folks should buy and use whatever they want and enjoy it... thats the great thing about choices

Not everyone is going to want to rebuild an M1 carbine (especially the bolt) to make it reliable. If you buy one already rebuilt that's been vetted it's going to be expensive. Probably about twice as expensive as the hundreds of $700 M4's out there that will run out of the box.

I guess it depends on how much time and money a person is willing to spend on a home defense rifle. They do make a nice HD rifle though when everything works.

Another option would be an Aero Survival Rifle manufactured by TNW. For $800 that would be my choice for a HD carbine. Comes threaded for a suppressor and can be either right or left eject.

https://www.tnwfirearms.com/product-p/asrx-cplt-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx.htm

 

[Officers'Wife]

Personally... if those were the choice I would take the carbine. While the AR may have better features and choices the fact remains I am not able to shoot one effectively while I am the carbine.

 

[Beck]

The results are in: THE M1 CARBINE WINS, chosen by the more experienced and well informed.

Glad this thread is over...

 

[someguy2800]

Turn in your AR's militaries and police of the world. Your getting M1's and M2's. We decided it.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

"M1 Carbine v. AR-15: Is there any reason to prefer one over the other in a home defense scenario?"

I'll dance with the one I brung.

 

[Mosin77]

Seems like, to sum up:

Carbine advantages:
Carbine is lighter/handier/points better
Carbine is quieter if both are unsuppressed
Carbine is probably easier for most non-AR people to figure out.
Carbine is a cool gun and you’d be more inclined to train with it

Carbine disadvantages:
Carbine has limited aftermarket support
Carbine is expensive
Carbine ammo is harder to come by/less variety available
Carbine may be more unreliable/carbine mags are finicky and not cheap anymore to replace frequently
Carbine is a cool gun and you would cry if it had to be impounded as evidence

AR advantages:
AR can be readily accessorized with home defense accessories
AR can be had in short barrel and suppressed configurations in calibers that optimize stopping power
AR is cheap in basic configurations (may be comparably priced to carbine++ in more optimized configurations)
AR is more reliable out of the box
AR ammunition of the more basic types is readily available and affordable
AR may perform acceptably with FMJ in home defense scenario
AR is cool in that tacticool operator way

AR disadvantages:
AR is usually heavier and more unwieldy than a Carbine
AR is ugly and possibly intimidating for some users to master
AR has more blast and will be harder on your ears in base configurations
AR ideal configurations (short barrel, suppressor, brace) are either currently more regulated or may soon become so, making for extra hoops and greater difficulty in resale if necessary.

My takeaway is that if you have a Carbine and lots of money to throw at ammo, mags, and parts to get it reliable, and want to throw some accessories at it, it can be a very good home defense platform.

If you have a budget even a basic AR will do the same job, almost as well. And it can be made a lot better with more $$$.

And either will probably save your bacon in a pinch with equal aplomb.

 

[SwampWolf]

your commie hero's video?

Stop it already! You were making some (at least a little) sense with your arguments along the way but when you stoop to name-calling, you're credibility is called into question.

 

[CapnMac]

An M1 carbine would probably be a $1000-$1200 gun today.

Fulton Armory-probably the king of current production--has an MSRP north (IIRC) of $2000, last I looked.
The other "new production" versions, all of which seem to use casting commissioned by Kahr/AO, are in the $900-1400 range. Which makes them perversely competitive in price to bottom-tier GI carbines "in the field." (Barring the hen's teeth examples that pop up of reasonable examples at reasonable prices.)

 

[Sistema1927]

Some of the contributions (if you can call them that) have been anything but "High Road."

Just to throw my .02 in the pot, the M1 Carbine does have a couple of things going for it for home defense. First, it is a weapon with a manual of arms that my wife understands and is comfortable with. She has never gotten the knack of the AR, no matter how many times I show her. She handles it well, shoots it well, and is comfortable with it.

Second, most home defense encounters don't offer the opportunity to put on hearing protection and, by their very nature, are in enclosed spaces. The Carbine has less sound pressure than the AR (speaking unsuppressed here of course), and that is a significant factor.

I like the AR for the role, but have a Carbine stoked with SP ammo readily available for the wife. I would not consider myself at a disadvantage if I couldn't get to the AR and needed to resort to the M1.

 

[Goosey]

Maybe I missed it, but where did anyone say that 30 Carbine fragmented...?

You said it was not inferior (presumably to 5.56/.223). Which it is.

Can you cite any credible and verifiable documents that demonstrate how 30 Carbine is entirely ineffective...?

It is an effective weapon, even with FMJ, same as a 1911 or a Luger or a PPSh was. But nowhere near as effective as a .223/5.56.

I don't know why anyone would be surprised that a gun firing .30-cal round nose FMJ one at a time gained a reputation for poor stopping power...

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Is there any reason to prefer one over the other in a home defense scenario?

Didn't take the time to read the tldr of very post, so forgive me if this has already been shared, but check out what Clint SMith at Thunder Ranch had to say about shooting the AR inside the home.

Start the video at 5:37 in.

 

[Robert]

Some of y'all seriously need to reread the rules you agreed to abide by when you joined. Your actions have lead to this thread being reported by fellow members, and to me locking it. After 5 pages, the last one almost nothing but bickering, we are done here.