Now besides Springfield and Fulton Armory are there other quality M14 / M1a manufactures out there? Dollar for dollar, model for model, and moa for moa how do they stack up? What is Springfield’s moa guarantee for their loaded model? Any first hand knowledge would be much appreciated. Looking for a good rifle but on a budget.
M1A / M14 question
- Thread starter jeffrice6
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Eat Beef
Member
There are a lot of guys building M14 type rifles out there, but if you're on a budget the best bang for your buck is prolly still the Springfield Armory Inc.
The only cheaper option would be a used rifle, or a chicom.
I don't know anything about SAI's moa guarantee, but if I were going to buy another M14 type rifle, I'd be looking for a used, low mileage, all USGI. They can be had for cheaper than that new Springer, and are a better rifle IMO.
The only cheaper option would be a used rifle, or a chicom.
I don't know anything about SAI's moa guarantee, but if I were going to buy another M14 type rifle, I'd be looking for a used, low mileage, all USGI. They can be had for cheaper than that new Springer, and are a better rifle IMO.
Powderman
Member
Good luck on that.
To the best of my knowledge, there were less than 20 authentic M14's released by the US Gov't for sale. All of these are NFA items.
Other than that, you will not find a 100% USGI M14. You definitely will not find a gov't receiver, because they are all considered components for full-auto, according to ATF.
Thus, your options are to:
a. Buy a Springfield.
b. Buy a LRB.
c. Buy a Fulton Armory.
d. Buy a used Nork, replace the barrel with something tasty, like a Douglas Match, or Krieger, have a GI bolt installed, glass-bed it and go to town.
None of the above will be cheap.
Keep your eyes out in the gun stores, though--frequently they have screamer deals. I got my M1A National Match that way--sold on consignment for $800.00!
To the best of my knowledge, there were less than 20 authentic M14's released by the US Gov't for sale. All of these are NFA items.
Other than that, you will not find a 100% USGI M14. You definitely will not find a gov't receiver, because they are all considered components for full-auto, according to ATF.
Thus, your options are to:
a. Buy a Springfield.
b. Buy a LRB.
c. Buy a Fulton Armory.
d. Buy a used Nork, replace the barrel with something tasty, like a Douglas Match, or Krieger, have a GI bolt installed, glass-bed it and go to town.
None of the above will be cheap.
Keep your eyes out in the gun stores, though--frequently they have screamer deals. I got my M1A National Match that way--sold on consignment for $800.00!
Don't need all GI, and not looking to cheep out, just wondering what a 1 moa rifle will cost me as apposed to a 2 inch. If anyone out there could tell me what kind accuracy there getting on which "level" ( standard, loaded, super)or brand of rifle, that would help me out a lot.
Fulton Armory receivers are made by Armscorp of Baltimore.
So you can feasably skip the middleman and buy an Armscorp M14NM or M21.
Or do like I did, buy an Armscorp M14NM receiver, then find a USGI parts kit (H&R, TRW, etc) and a Krieger medium-weight barrel:
So you can feasably skip the middleman and buy an Armscorp M14NM or M21.
Or do like I did, buy an Armscorp M14NM receiver, then find a USGI parts kit (H&R, TRW, etc) and a Krieger medium-weight barrel:
If buying new, I'd expect to spend at least $2500 to obtain sub-MOA performance. The biggest components of that cost (over the base rifle) will be the match-grade barrel and the smith work to bed the rifle. Budget more if you want GI parts on a LRB receiver, or a fancy stock.
For a deal, see if you can find a used match rifle. Check with highpower shooters; many of them have switched to the AR but still have an M14/M1A.
For a deal, see if you can find a used match rifle. Check with highpower shooters; many of them have switched to the AR but still have an M14/M1A.
Powderman
Member
G98:
WHAT!?!
Are you serious?!
That's a neat bit of information to know!
Also, bedding an M1A or a Garand is not hard at all, if you pay attention to detail.
I highly recommend the "Shop Manual" for the M1 and M1A, by Jerry Kuhnhausen for anyone who owns one of these rifles. There's a wealth of information there.
WHAT!?!
Are you serious?!
That's a neat bit of information to know!
Also, bedding an M1A or a Garand is not hard at all, if you pay attention to detail.
I highly recommend the "Shop Manual" for the M1 and M1A, by Jerry Kuhnhausen for anyone who owns one of these rifles. There's a wealth of information there.
ATAShooter
Member
My brother has a Norinco. He loves it.
Eat Beef
Member
Powderman,
Obviously I wasn't talking about a USGI reciever. And one can find all USGI parts on a SAI reciever cheaper than a new SAI "loaded". The other options you forgot are Polytech and /or Norinco recievers.
Jeff, to answer your original question, the accuracy is in the barrel and the build. Neither are cheap. You'll want a NM modified (unitized) gas system, NM oprod guide, NM oprod spring guide, the aforementioned bedding, and I quality barrel, all hand lapped/installed by a quality smith who specializes in the M14 type rifle.
If you want the best, you could just go for a Smith Crazy Horse on a LRB M21. It's only money.
Obviously I wasn't talking about a USGI reciever. And one can find all USGI parts on a SAI reciever cheaper than a new SAI "loaded". The other options you forgot are Polytech and /or Norinco recievers.
Jeff, to answer your original question, the accuracy is in the barrel and the build. Neither are cheap. You'll want a NM modified (unitized) gas system, NM oprod guide, NM oprod spring guide, the aforementioned bedding, and I quality barrel, all hand lapped/installed by a quality smith who specializes in the M14 type rifle.
If you want the best, you could just go for a Smith Crazy Horse on a LRB M21. It's only money.
byf43
Member
As Eat Beef said, "It's only money."
Here are two groups fired from my 2nd hand SAI M1-A:
The 'Circle within the Square' target is 1". I made up a bunch of these targets for the original owner of the rifle.
Please note: These groups are from 200 yds!!!!! I deleted the load data because this load might not be safe in YOUR rifle.
Suffice it to say that these loads ARE safe and within limits.
(Both groups are 5 shots.)
This barreled action was "cryo'd"; has a Kreiger Hvywght barrel, and has had a full NM job done to it.
The work done (after being cryo'd) was done at Fulton Armory, by a man that is no longer there. (Retired.)
This rifle is an 'earlier' "Springer" in the 057 serial number range.
Another plus, this rifle is a sight to behold. It is beautiful!!!! When my daughter returns my digital camera, I will post pics. Honestly, it's gorgeous!
Granted, these groups were fired from a "Bulls Bag" and the rifle has a Leupold scope sitting in a (don't gag) Springfield Armory Gen III mount.
As for the money. . . . . I paid $2k for this rifle (sans scope), from a good friend. Did I get a good deal??? In my opinion. . . heck yes. My buddy has almost $4k in this rifle.
I also got a bunch of GI magazines and some ammo, to boot.
So yes, "It's only money!"
Here are two groups fired from my 2nd hand SAI M1-A:
The 'Circle within the Square' target is 1". I made up a bunch of these targets for the original owner of the rifle.
Please note: These groups are from 200 yds!!!!! I deleted the load data because this load might not be safe in YOUR rifle.
Suffice it to say that these loads ARE safe and within limits.
(Both groups are 5 shots.)
This barreled action was "cryo'd"; has a Kreiger Hvywght barrel, and has had a full NM job done to it.
The work done (after being cryo'd) was done at Fulton Armory, by a man that is no longer there. (Retired.)
This rifle is an 'earlier' "Springer" in the 057 serial number range.
Another plus, this rifle is a sight to behold. It is beautiful!!!! When my daughter returns my digital camera, I will post pics. Honestly, it's gorgeous!
Granted, these groups were fired from a "Bulls Bag" and the rifle has a Leupold scope sitting in a (don't gag) Springfield Armory Gen III mount.
As for the money. . . . . I paid $2k for this rifle (sans scope), from a good friend. Did I get a good deal??? In my opinion. . . heck yes. My buddy has almost $4k in this rifle.
I also got a bunch of GI magazines and some ammo, to boot.
So yes, "It's only money!"
byf43
Member
Trumpet wrote:
Yes, sir. Well, not for me. He built it for my shooting buddy.
Charles Maloney is one talented man. He also built my buddy's M1 Garand.
This man can work 'miracles' with a rifle. These rifles are literally 'works of art!'
Yes, sir. Well, not for me. He built it for my shooting buddy.
Charles Maloney is one talented man. He also built my buddy's M1 Garand.
This man can work 'miracles' with a rifle. These rifles are literally 'works of art!'
You can spend a lot of money to find a rifle with sub-moa performance out of the box. Much of the rifle's performance depends on the ammunition used and adjustments to the base model.
My .02: Begin with a used, but not abused, rifle. The commercial M14 rifle, regardless of maker, is generally going to cost $800-1200, so its not cheap to start with. If you can measure the used rifle's throat erosion and muzzle wear, inspect the parts for wear, and look through the barrel, that will tell you alot. Then consider the following, no particular order: bedding, improving the trigger pull, national match front sight, Sadlak op rod gude, and either shimming or unitizing the gas cylinder. Of course, the rest of the rifle's parts have to work well. By the time you've done these upgrades, you may spend ~$300.
Reloading is the only way to develop the most accurate ammunition for your rifle. Its very unusual to find any rifle out of the box that will deliver sub-moa performance with most ammunition.
BTW, I have both chinese and SA, Inc. rifles that shoot very well. Both took adjustments to deliver that performance. Also, while an occasional rifle can have QC problems, SA, Inc. has been very good on warranty issues with me. I recommend SA, Inc. rifles to the first time M1A owner for its warranty.
My .02: Begin with a used, but not abused, rifle. The commercial M14 rifle, regardless of maker, is generally going to cost $800-1200, so its not cheap to start with. If you can measure the used rifle's throat erosion and muzzle wear, inspect the parts for wear, and look through the barrel, that will tell you alot. Then consider the following, no particular order: bedding, improving the trigger pull, national match front sight, Sadlak op rod gude, and either shimming or unitizing the gas cylinder. Of course, the rest of the rifle's parts have to work well. By the time you've done these upgrades, you may spend ~$300.
Reloading is the only way to develop the most accurate ammunition for your rifle. Its very unusual to find any rifle out of the box that will deliver sub-moa performance with most ammunition.
BTW, I have both chinese and SA, Inc. rifles that shoot very well. Both took adjustments to deliver that performance. Also, while an occasional rifle can have QC problems, SA, Inc. has been very good on warranty issues with me. I recommend SA, Inc. rifles to the first time M1A owner for its warranty.
byf43
Member
Yes, he is. I've spoken with him numerous times.
I've got an M1 that I should have him work on. After I broke my neck, he and I were discussing how I could get several things done to my M1 to help reduce recoil considerably.
(Kinda leary of removing the rest of it's WWII appeal.) I might buy another and have Charles 'do his thing' with it.
Charles really is talented and verrrrrrrrrrry good at what he does. My buddy won't let anyone else touch his M1 Garand.
new to M14 type rifles
So, based on what I've read so far on this post is that USGI forged M14receivers are superior to those of the modern reproduction Springfield Armory M1A's which are cast receivers. Right? I have a little experience with weapons with cast parts, a Mini 14 cracked its receiver & the op rod flew off. I wonder if SA's suffer from this? What is the best? I'm leatning that most THR members prefer CMP Garands to the new Garands from SA.
So, based on what I've read so far on this post is that USGI forged M14receivers are superior to those of the modern reproduction Springfield Armory M1A's which are cast receivers. Right? I have a little experience with weapons with cast parts, a Mini 14 cracked its receiver & the op rod flew off. I wonder if SA's suffer from this? What is the best? I'm leatning that most THR members prefer CMP Garands to the new Garands from SA.
The Springfield cast receivers are just fine. They have a proven track record and will last many thousands of rounds and wear out a pile of barrels. LRB makes a forged receiver which is twice the price of the SA, for what I feel is no material benefit. However if the LRB gets you excited and you want to spend the money then by all means go for it.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Attain clarity of your goals.
The M14/M1A is fundamentally a battle rifle, whose design purpose is to achieve ease of maintenance and uber reliability with reasonable accuracy, and all design and manufacturing choices were made with those priorities in mind.
To some degree or another, the very act of accurizing a battle rifle trades back some of those factors for accuracy, and you risk creating a cranky queen.
Either path is OK, as long as it aligns with your desires, and understanding of the tradeoffs.
The M14/M1A is fundamentally a battle rifle, whose design purpose is to achieve ease of maintenance and uber reliability with reasonable accuracy, and all design and manufacturing choices were made with those priorities in mind.
To some degree or another, the very act of accurizing a battle rifle trades back some of those factors for accuracy, and you risk creating a cranky queen.
Either path is OK, as long as it aligns with your desires, and understanding of the tradeoffs.
Quintin Likely
Member
There's nothing really wrong with cast receivers. Yes, forged is nice, but you'll be dead and gone long before you ever wear a cast receiver out to the point where the rifle is non-functional/dangerous to fire.
Unfortunately, when it comes to M14s, "good rifle" and "on a budget" may not compute depending on what you want to do. An accurate M14 is an expensive, fragile beast. The Springfield rifles are good guns, no, the fit and finish isn't perfect, but they're quite serviceable. And Springfield has a lifetime warranty, if/when you ever run into any problems.
Unfortunately, when it comes to M14s, "good rifle" and "on a budget" may not compute depending on what you want to do. An accurate M14 is an expensive, fragile beast. The Springfield rifles are good guns, no, the fit and finish isn't perfect, but they're quite serviceable. And Springfield has a lifetime warranty, if/when you ever run into any problems.
I wouldn't say the M14 when accurized is fragile if you set realistic goals. If you want a sub MOA gun, yes you will be disappointed and will probably always be fiddling with something (usually the bedding) to get it right. If you want a good 1.5 MOA rifle that can be attained with a match barrel, unitized gas system, trigger job, and a GI fiberglass stock with good tight lockup. You will then have a rifle that doesn't have the headaches of a bedded action, disassembles easily for cleaning, and will be accurate for the life of the barrel.
Take a look at the Crazy Horse rifles that Smith is building for the military. With careful assembly by a competent smith you can do a lot without compromising the rugged durability of the M14 design.
Take a look at the Crazy Horse rifles that Smith is building for the military. With careful assembly by a competent smith you can do a lot without compromising the rugged durability of the M14 design.
SA M1A MOA
I have attained a MOA @ 200 yards with my SA M1A standard loaded fiberglass w/o bedding and a Bushnell 6-24x40 scope of 1.25"-3.5". The first five shots are 1" as the barrel heats up the accuracy opens up. The greatest MOA I've had with rapid fire is 4.5"-5.5". Groups of 10. Again the first 5 shots are within 1.25"-3.5" with a few errant flyers reaching ouy to 5.5". I've never had a grouping larger than 6" @ 200 Yards. I will bed the rifle as soon as I can shot it to it's potential, right now the rifle out shoots me. My goal is to achieve a 5-10 shot group @ 1,000 yards with an MOA of 6" or less.
BTW, SA Customer service is the best I've seen. Stock was cracked where they filled teh fully auto switch and I sent it back and had the factory installed QD for the harris bipod. Sent it on Monday and got it back on Thursday of the same week.
I'd buy another in the future. Next wil be a 1911 the professional, carried by the FBI.
I have attained a MOA @ 200 yards with my SA M1A standard loaded fiberglass w/o bedding and a Bushnell 6-24x40 scope of 1.25"-3.5". The first five shots are 1" as the barrel heats up the accuracy opens up. The greatest MOA I've had with rapid fire is 4.5"-5.5". Groups of 10. Again the first 5 shots are within 1.25"-3.5" with a few errant flyers reaching ouy to 5.5". I've never had a grouping larger than 6" @ 200 Yards. I will bed the rifle as soon as I can shot it to it's potential, right now the rifle out shoots me. My goal is to achieve a 5-10 shot group @ 1,000 yards with an MOA of 6" or less.
BTW, SA Customer service is the best I've seen. Stock was cracked where they filled teh fully auto switch and I sent it back and had the factory installed QD for the harris bipod. Sent it on Monday and got it back on Thursday of the same week.
I'd buy another in the future. Next wil be a 1911 the professional, carried by the FBI.
There is no holy grail in M14-land. Thanks to a renewed interest in developing the M14 further, the M14 has become much like the AR-15 in that it can do whatever you want it to, and do it reasonably well.
Want a long distance M14? Mount up a scope, do some accurizing tricks and it can fulfill that role nicely. If CQB is your game, the Springfield SOCOM can handle that. Want something in between that might do both short and long range well? An SA Bush rifle can handle do that.
Essentially the holy grail is whatever you want it to be.
Want a long distance M14? Mount up a scope, do some accurizing tricks and it can fulfill that role nicely. If CQB is your game, the Springfield SOCOM can handle that. Want something in between that might do both short and long range well? An SA Bush rifle can handle do that.
Essentially the holy grail is whatever you want it to be.
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