M1a socom ii

[Caveman100000bc]

Hey everyone,

I've played around with a few of my friends M1As, and the short barrel versions are appealing. I'm looking into getting a SOCOM II, with a 16 inch barrel. I like it a lot because of the full length top rail, so I could mount a normal relief scope. However, I personally find the bottom and side rail clusters to be a little much in terms of unneeded weight and just plain old looks. I've heard that you can remove the bottom rail assembly, but I haven't found a really reliable source. Can anyone confirm?

As an aside, for me the choice came down to the SOCOM vs. the Scout. Anyone have any final thoughts on which is better? The use I have in mind is as a nice hunting rifle for medium game, and as a fun range gun. I don't really plan on shooting it further than a few hundred yards or so.

Thanks

 

[Jeremy2171]

I built my Scout-ish rifle. Barrel chopped to 18.5" (vs 18" for scout) dropped it in the Troy MCS and here it is......

It's 4" longer than an M4 and weighs 11.2lbs w/o mag and BUIS/grip-pod/sling only.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

FWIW, if you like a scope mounted in the usual position over the receiver, I'd recommend a SOCOM16 and adding a Bassett mount. That's the setup I use and it's just terrific. You get to lose all the rails and the associated weight.

FH

 

[Caveman100000bc]

Jeremy, that's an awesome looking rifle you have there. Nice carpets too . . .

FWIW, if you like a scope mounted in the usual position over the receiver, I'd recommend a SOCOM16 and adding a Bassett mount. That's the setup I use and it's just terrific. You get to lose all the rails and the associated weight

I've thought about it, but for some reason I'm really digging the full length rail. Of course, the question is what I would use the front 1/2 of it for, but hey, at least it looks cool. Its just all the extra rails in the cluster that give it that awkward muzzle heavy look and feel.

 

[redbullitt]

Mine came with just the single forward rail. I like it very much. Shoots plenty well enough and is nice and short. Heavy, but pretty handy and runs very well.

 

[sappnasty]

Here is mine


Honestly, I found myself in the same situation as you...I couldn't decide between the scout and socom models...but I knew that I wanted a shorter barrel either way. After I got it the rails looked so cool and they are very great (I found that the weight is un-noticable with rails). But after humping it around the woods hunting, I never ever have my bottom rail even on. So to answer your question, yes the bottom rail does remove very easily with two quick release buttons. But over all, I could not be more satisfied with its accuracy, recoil and performance. I put in a 10 round mag and shot 5 steel targets at the range the otherday and hit every round on target...and with it's very light recoil and quickness of re-aquiring targets I almost did it as fast as I could pull the trigger. Everyone complains about the weight, but for heaven's sake....your carrying a "battle rifle" chambered in 7.62 NATO...what else would you expect....and once you carry it and get used to its feel, you will not even notice the weight anymore. I think that it is quite pleasurable to lug around...epecially where I hunt (Florida/Georgia). I like knowing that I have a very accurate rifle that can put "one hitter quitters" down range as fast as I can pull the trigger...and at any game animal at that. Get the Socom II as you will not be disappointed....TRUST ME.

 

[bpl]

I'd rather have the scout myself.

 

[maniak]

I really like my Scout.

Went rail heavy on a G3 clone (PTR-91 KFM4) prior to that and found myself replacing the 3-rail hand guard with a rail-less one. It wasn't that the rails weighted all that much, it was more that -- with the rails, the stuff I put on the rails, the ammo, some water and other gear -- everything weighed too much. I could hump it, but I didn't like it.

Now that I've got the Scout, I've put the rails back on the PTR-91 to support a bi-pod. That gives me a light rifle for longer treks and a very stable, but heavier firing platform for shorter schleps.

In other words, when I had just one .308, I found I wanted it to be lighter with fewer accessories. Now that I have two, I am more comfortable loading one of those up.

Just my $.02.

 

[Caveman100000bc]

Sappnasty, Thanks for the tips. Everything you said made perfect sense to me, especially the part about "Its a 'battle rifle.' Its going to be heavy." You also positively answered my question about the bottom rails, which means this is almost certainly my next purchase.

As for humping it around once and then never bringing the bottom rails with you, was that an issue with weight, or did you just decide "hey, its unneeded, why bring it?"

 

[sappnasty]

It was more of a "Hey, I dont use it so what have it on there" kind of thing....I also found that while shooting at the range, the bottom rail didn't bother my shooting grip...that is, when I have time to take the shots. However, when in the woods and I needed to bring the rifle up quickly...I found my hand going farther foward on the bottom of the rifle naturally and the bottim rail simply made it akward and uncomfortable. As far as weight, like I said...it doesn't bother me at all and you'll come to find that the weight of the bottom rail is so small it is really un-noticable on OR off the rifle. Like I said, overall you will love the thing. I think mine shoots greats with the short barrel and has little to no recoil for its caliber. If you want a real review of the rifle, google Asab Mayoob's (I think that's how you spell it) review of the Socom...I think you will be impressed with what his thoughts are.

 

[skipbo32]

get the scout. its more versitle. they say a .308 should at least be 18"

 

[bergmen]

Last year I bought a brand new Walnut Scout Squad:

One of the most fun, accurate and reliable weapons I own.

Dan

 

[Red State]

I also vote for the scout. Thats what I chose because the .308 really benefits (approx an extra 100fps) from the extra 2" of barrel in the scout. For .308, choosing between a 22" and 24" barrel wouldn't be such a big deal, but choosing between 16" and 18" is really significant.

I have a longer range bolt action rifle, but I am still glad that I didn't sacrifice .308 ballistics and carbine handling and finer sights in order to get some extra rails.

By the way, here is my setup:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=527436

 

[sappnasty]

Ahhhhh...here we go. Another 18" versus 16" thread. Now I have to put in my .02 cents worth. The difference between the 16" and 18" in ballistics is negligable unless you have a chrono....The bottom line is, anything that 18" barrel can hit the 16" barrel will do the same with the same accuracy. Now, understand I am not arguing for the sake of arguing...it just seems like there are too many people out there that honestly believe that extra 2" will be noticable to the average shooter....it wont. Do the research, it speaks for itself.

Red State: Here is the thing, when I finally had the money and made the decision to purchase...I had a heck of a time trying to decide between the scout and socom models. But the thing that turned me on to the Socom was what you consider "sacrifices" (16" barrel, larger "battle" sights, trijicon front post and maybe even the rails a little). I wanted all those characteristics in a rifle because of my shooting style and where I hunt....so point is, I don't see it as a "sacrifice", but an advantage for my use. To each his own I guess.....

I would love to own ANY M1A....period. They are all quality shooters made to last beyond our lifetime. And even after all of that fuss I put up, I still want a scout.... But I think I would like the o.d. green...thats sweeeet.

Oh and by the way....everyone's rifles look great..how bout some more pics?

 

[skipbo32]

sappnasty.

you are the first person i have ever heard that from. i have read many times that there is a significant drop off in velocity from an 18 to 16" barrel. maybe not at a 100yds, but after that there is a big differnece. they are even making a 12" m14 now and thats fine......these shorties have their place.......but if you want to use a .308 the way it was meant to be used then you dont want anything under 18".

there is an interesting thread (i need to dig it up) where a swat team sniper was testing the barrel length of a semi auto .308. the conclusion was that 18 inchers can hold their own against the longer barrels. anything under 18 inches was considered CQB only.

 

[sappnasty]

But thats the point I'm trying to make exactly....I didn't buy my rifle to be a long range shooter...it was purchased to meet my needs for short range shooting/hunting/manuverability...But people seem to think just cause it's a .308 that it "wasn't meant for that" and longer barrels are always better. In no way am I knocking on ANY M1A model or longer barrel....I have just simply been trying to get the point across that each model is designed for a reason and just because it has a shorter barrel/longer barrel, etc...does not make it a "better" rifle. Somewhere someone designed it for a reason and it wasn't long range shooting. And just to squash another thing, the barrel is actually only 1.75 inches shorter than the scout....if you really think that makes a noticeable difference your plum crazy...like it was stated earlier, maybe 100-200 FPS AT THE MOST. If you want more information on the 16" barreled M1A's performance and ballistics, read the the online/magazine reviews posted by trusted and professional shooters (I've posted a link below)
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory24.php

 

[longdayjake]

No offense but 100-200 fps is actually a big difference. It can mean the difference between great bullet performance and poor bullet performance.

Somewhere someone designed it for a reason and it wasn't long range shooting.

The socom was designed to look cool to people that like black rifles but want an m1a. And maybe for indoor use.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The socom was designed to look cool to people that like black rifles but want an m1a. And maybe for indoor use.

Good golly! I'd hate to use a SOCOM indoors for anything emergent (ie- without hearing protection). That would be awful.

I think the SOCOM16 is a fine brush gun. The SOCOMII is the answer to the problem 'Why can't I get a rifle covered in the latest craptactical gizmos in a caliber that makes me feel like more of a man?' It should have been called the SOCOM Xtreme!!!

That said, I chose the Scout/Squad and took off the forward rail, replacing it with a receiver mount. It's my general purpose, mid-range rifle. I carry it in a two point combat style sling (of my own manufacture), that converts to biathlon style carry for long hikes. The weight doesn't bother me.

 

[bergmen]

sappnasty.

you are the first person i have ever heard that from. i have read many times that there is a significant drop off in velocity from an 18 to 16" barrel. maybe not at a 100yds, but after that there is a big differnece. they are even making a 12" m14 now and thats fine......these shorties have their place.......but if you want to use a .308 the way it was meant to be used then you dont want anything under 18".

there is an interesting thread (i need to dig it up) where a swat team sniper was testing the barrel length of a semi auto .308. the conclusion was that 18 inchers can hold their own against the longer barrels. anything under 18 inches was considered CQB only.

I ran a velocity test between my Browning X-Bolt II Medallion in .308 and the M1A Scout Squad using Winchester white box 7.62 147 GR FMJ (Q3130) and a Chrony F-1 chronograph out about 10 feet from the muxzzle.

The Browning has a barrel length of 22", the Scout Squad is 18". Here are the results:

Browning-
1) 2781
2) 2764
3) 2799
4) 2759
5) 2789

Average=2778

Scout Squad-
1) 2732
2) 2789
3) 2773
4) 2760
5) 2740

Average=2758

Now granted, these are two different rifles, two different actions and barrel types but I would have expected a far greater difference in average velocities if barrel length played a major role velocity variations.

In addition, I tested five of my favorite handloads (150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips over 48 grains of W748, no crimp) in the Browning:

1) 2843
2) 2843
3) 2847
4) 2852
5) 2862

Average=2849

Is this a consistent load or what? Probably seeing a rise in speed as the barrel heats up.

Dan

 

[Rshooter]

Thanks for the test Bergmen. Hard info beats opinion any day.

 

[sappnasty]

Well I guess im justa big ol' dummy then!

 

[henschman]

I carry it in a two point combat style sling (of my own manufacture), that converts to biathlon style carry for long hikes. The weight doesn't bother me.

Sweet! Do you have any pics of this sling? How'd you make it? I kinda have a thing for slings and that sounds like a cool idea.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The socom was designed to look cool to people that like black rifles but want an m1a.

+1. Springfield slapped a mall ninja name on a 16" barrel M1A . . . since the mall ninja name does nothing but sound cool (and doesn't reflect anything to do with actual SOCOM procurement) it seems pretty obvious that Springfield Armory designed the rifle to better separate those looking for the tacticool from their money.

Doesn't mean it's a bad design, just that the people at SA are jacka$$es. I've mentioned my belief here or on TFL before that I think Springfield should be sufficiently ashamed of themselves for wrapping a product in secret squirrel coolness it doesn't deserve that they should make donations to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation for every SOCOM they sell. But that would be about something beyond the bottom line and all . . .

 

[skipbo32]

sappnasty:

the extra 2" does make a difference. LRB makes their 18" barrels .5" longer because it gets a better ratio of velocity. if CQB is what you want that is fine.....but all i was saying is that with the 18" you get more vercitility. you say that the 2" doesnt make a difference........personally i dont see how -2" makes a difference in handling in the field.

socoms a good weapons, dont get me wrong. i know that the people that have them, love them.....but the OP sounded like a noobie that needed some input before he made his purchase.

to the OP:
if you are dead set on getting a socom, then do it. you may find yourself, however, spending lots of money on the high powered .308 ammo and then wanting more from it in terms of performance.

if you want to blow things up at close range, hog hunt or want a tough jeep gun, then you will be happy with the socom. if you want all those things and more (ie deer rifle, long range optic weapon) then the scout will do all of the above.

IMHO: the 2" difference makes a bigger difference in performance then it does in handling.

 

[skipbo32]

caveman:

also, you dont need to buy a socom just to put a top rail on your gun. i reccoment the ultimak rail as see here. the rail is low enough so you can co-witness your iron sights through a x1 optic: