TexKettering
Member
You will get more information there, but that site is basically full of internet operators who will just further the "if it's not Colt/LMT/Noveske, then it's junk" which is poor advice.
M4 Carbine
- Thread starter Mantis86
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You will get more information there, but that site is basically full of internet operators who will just further the "if it's not Colt/LMT/Noveske, then it's junk" which is poor advice.
What is your alternate advice or point of view? So far it would appear that your posts can be summed up as "nuh uh!"
FWIW, I've found ar15.com to be quite the opposite. While there are some there that understand that quality costs money, the vast majority are more interested in purchasing Oly/DPMS/BM/RRA/Stag so that they have something to post pictures of on the internet.
What ar15.com does best is give you a LARGE group from which to sample. However, just like any other forum, there is a huge amount of completely useless information there to sort through. Just look at the ar15 magazines thread on this forum. 99% noise, 1% signal.
FWIW, I've found ar15.com to be quite the opposite. While there are some there that understand that quality costs money, the vast majority are more interested in purchasing Oly/DPMS/BM/RRA/Stag so that they have something to post pictures of on the internet.
What ar15.com does best is give you a LARGE group from which to sample. However, just like any other forum, there is a huge amount of completely useless information there to sort through. Just look at the ar15 magazines thread on this forum. 99% noise, 1% signal.
Heck
Member
Pretty sure my opinion is not valid since neither of my AR's are not Tacticool. No rails, lights, lasers, ACOG, or Aimpoints but they have ben utterly reliable. Both are kit guns from Del-ton. Never had and issue as long as I was using good mags. Can not say enough about the Pmag.
The only other personal experince I have had with the AR is my fathers SW M&P 15 OR which has been sent back to smith twice. Once for Short stroking due to a canted gas clock and is there now due to terrible acuracy issues. That being said i understand that is not the norm for these rifles and is personal experience with one rifle.
My mall ninja brother has a DPMS and an OLY. He swears by both of them.
I personally have no preference on brand but can not say enough about my two "kit guns"
The only other personal experince I have had with the AR is my fathers SW M&P 15 OR which has been sent back to smith twice. Once for Short stroking due to a canted gas clock and is there now due to terrible acuracy issues. That being said i understand that is not the norm for these rifles and is personal experience with one rifle.
My mall ninja brother has a DPMS and an OLY. He swears by both of them.
I personally have no preference on brand but can not say enough about my two "kit guns"
RockyMtnTactical
Member
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- 3,539
I'm not sure anyone argued that point. However, the degree by which they are better has been greatly exaggerated by some... I think we can all agree that generally speaking, those being mentioned are among the best.
To state that you have a one in 1000 chance of buying a "decent" quality AR15 from any other company outside of Colt, LMT, and Noveske is simply incorrect and misleads people.
To state that you have only a one in 1000 chance of getting a lemon from those 3 manufacturers is flat out wrong too...
An AR15 is not junk simply because it was not built according to the TDP and a rifle built according to the TDP is not immune to being a lemon. Not to mention that there are plenty of companies outside of Colt, LMT, Noveske that build their rifles pretty dang close to the TDP, at least where it matters. A 1/7 twist does not a reliable rifle make...
TexKettering
Member
If that's directed towards me, then I'm sorry I put off that vibe. I'm merely trying to let the OP know that he does not have to spend $2k on an AR to go shoot with at the range.
If it were still available, I would tell the OP to pick up a CMMG bargain bin rifle as a starter, but they're all out.
He needs to decide what he wants to do with it (I'm assuming plinking at the range and possibly HD), figure out a budget on how much he wants to spend, and then research from there.
One does not need to get the top echelon to get a reliable rifle. You can get Stag, RRA, DPMS, Bushmaster, CMMG, etc, etc, etc...
nofishbob
Member
Another thing to keep in mind is that "The Chart" lists stock configurations. Many of the perceived shortcomings of the rifles to the right of perfection can be brought up to a higher level very inexpensively with a few options from their respective manufacturer.
HTH
Bob
HTH
Bob
How does one decide "how much better" they need? How do you determine when "good enough" really is? How do you decide which features are useless and which are needed? How does one put a price on quality? Why would one opt for a product of lesser value for a similar price, or of similar price but lesser value?
IMHO, I would greatly prefer to have a $500 AK than a $700 AR. Yes, many of those sub-par ARs can be improved with a few whacks of a punch in the right place, but little can be done about sub-par barrel and bolt materials, or low quality internal parts (something that doesn't even appear on The Chart) without spending money.
Personally, I see no point in settling for "as good as". Far too often people wind up spending more on a sub-par rifle and CAA or Crapco bolt-on garbage than they would spend on a quality rifle and a decent optic. Frankly, I'd rather have a 6920 and run iron sights than a RRA or Bushmaster and run an optic.
If I was in the AR market, and thought I was limited to a budget of $700-$800 I would bring my lunch, cut back on the beer, and maybe get a side job and save up the extra $200 to get an M&P or a CD LE model.
IMHO, I would greatly prefer to have a $500 AK than a $700 AR. Yes, many of those sub-par ARs can be improved with a few whacks of a punch in the right place, but little can be done about sub-par barrel and bolt materials, or low quality internal parts (something that doesn't even appear on The Chart) without spending money.
Personally, I see no point in settling for "as good as". Far too often people wind up spending more on a sub-par rifle and CAA or Crapco bolt-on garbage than they would spend on a quality rifle and a decent optic. Frankly, I'd rather have a 6920 and run iron sights than a RRA or Bushmaster and run an optic.
If I was in the AR market, and thought I was limited to a budget of $700-$800 I would bring my lunch, cut back on the beer, and maybe get a side job and save up the extra $200 to get an M&P or a CD LE model.
I agree COMPLETELY. Although, once properly educated, I don't see how anyone would want to settle for RRA/DPMS/Oly, etc.
While their guns may need a little tweaking in my opinion, I would say Stag Arms would be the closest to being one of these companies. Other than the bogus way they stake the carrier key, and the fact that they use the blue vs. the correct black insert for the extractor in their carbines, the guns are good to go. Both of what I would consider "significant" issues with Stag guns are easily fixed.
Do you not put any value on better quality materials, or proper testing of same?
What is it about Stag that you would say they do right?
About the only thing Stag has going for them, IMHO, is that they produce a better rifle than Bushmaster for a lower price.
What is it about Stag that you would say they do right?
About the only thing Stag has going for them, IMHO, is that they produce a better rifle than Bushmaster for a lower price.
mdlmkr7.62
Member
Colt, Noveske & LMT are the best. Tier 1 is Colt & FN but mere mortals can't buy an FN so that leaves Colt as the best. Colt has the best resale value too if that makes a difference. Check M4carbine.net for an indepth discussion of this subject.
You can buy a tier 2,3 or 4 mfg rifle and then upgerade the parts to match Colt M4 (6920) but you'll end up with almost as much into it and it still won't have the Colt marking on the receiver or resale value (if that matters to you)
7.62
You can buy a tier 2,3 or 4 mfg rifle and then upgerade the parts to match Colt M4 (6920) but you'll end up with almost as much into it and it still won't have the Colt marking on the receiver or resale value (if that matters to you)
7.62
Timradcliffe345
member
Sometimes it comes to the point where debating any further is counter productive.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
Timradcliffe345
member
Sometimes it comes to the point where debating any further is counter productive.
I think we all can agree that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
I think we all can agree that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
Timradcliffe345
member
Sometimes it comes to the point where debating any further is counter productive.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
Timradcliffe345
member
Sometimes it comes to the point where debating any further is counter productive.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
I think we all can agree upon that having any AR is better than having none before Obama-Biden get into the White house.
God Bless You All & This Great Nation.
TexKettering
Member
I agree x4
What does Stag do right? They produce a quality gun that is close enough to Mil Spec at a reasonable price. What is it that Colt and the others do that is so right. Oh that's right, they buy parts from CMT which is Stag's parent company.
In the areas where Stag deviates from spec, their guns can be easily upgraded.
Better materials? 4140 vs. 4150 steel? For a semi auto, no I don't place any value there. It makes no difference at all.
MPI bolt and shot-peened bolt? Big deal. I figure with Obakarama likely to be our next President I should have plenty of AR spare parts put away, and have already done so. I can and have bought spare MPI and shot-peened bolts for less than 60 bucks. Meanwhile I can probably shoot the original Stag bolt for 10,000 rounds while I'm waiting for it to break since it doesn't have the magic MPI stamp.
It sounds like you are caught up in the minutia of your chart, and have lost sight of the big picture.
No, you're missing the point.
Better is better. It is up to you to decide if you want, need, or can afford (or have the self-discipline to afford) better. I've said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that people need to read the explanation of features that goes with The Chart and make an INFORMED decision. That's all I ask. Well that, and that people acknowledge that better is better and stop trying to verbally polish their turd.
If "good enough for the same money as great" works for you then it's your money and you can spend it however you want. But usually what happens is that people make a hasty and un-informed purchase and then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince everyone else that their "just as good" is actually somehow "better", and to get someone else to make the same mistake in order to cover up for it.
But better is still better.
Better is better. It is up to you to decide if you want, need, or can afford (or have the self-discipline to afford) better. I've said over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that people need to read the explanation of features that goes with The Chart and make an INFORMED decision. That's all I ask. Well that, and that people acknowledge that better is better and stop trying to verbally polish their turd.
If "good enough for the same money as great" works for you then it's your money and you can spend it however you want. But usually what happens is that people make a hasty and un-informed purchase and then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince everyone else that their "just as good" is actually somehow "better", and to get someone else to make the same mistake in order to cover up for it.
But better is still better.
No one is saying that an 800 dollar Stag is as close to mil spec as a 1200 Colt M4, despite the weird lower pin sizes Colt insists on using on their commercial models.
Colt is obviously the standard by which others are judged. Where I think many people take exception is your attitude that anything they buy short of a Colt is a turd that can never be the functional equivalent of a Colt. As I said, there are a couple items Stag does that I take exception to, namely their carrier key staking technique and their lack of offering an M4 bolt package with the latest upgrades. These "problems" are easily fixed for a 50 dollar bill with change left over. Do you just have to have an MPI bolt? Tack on an extra 50 bucks for a total of $100 in upgrades to the Stag.
Colt is the standard by which others are judged. But a Stag with a knowledgeable owner willing to put a few bucks in it will have the functional equal of a Colt for at least 300 bucks less after a few simple upgrades.
Colt is obviously the standard by which others are judged. Where I think many people take exception is your attitude that anything they buy short of a Colt is a turd that can never be the functional equivalent of a Colt. As I said, there are a couple items Stag does that I take exception to, namely their carrier key staking technique and their lack of offering an M4 bolt package with the latest upgrades. These "problems" are easily fixed for a 50 dollar bill with change left over. Do you just have to have an MPI bolt? Tack on an extra 50 bucks for a total of $100 in upgrades to the Stag.
Colt is the standard by which others are judged. But a Stag with a knowledgeable owner willing to put a few bucks in it will have the functional equal of a Colt for at least 300 bucks less after a few simple upgrades.
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